One of the most respected conservative theologians has thrown his opinion in the political ring and has advocated for the election of Donald Trump. His name is Dr. Wayne Grudem, the distinguished Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary. Prior to that he was a Biblical theology professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. You may read his endorsement here. http://m.townhall.com/columnists/waynegrudem/2016/07/28/why-voting-for-donald-trump-is-a-morally-good-choice-n2199564
To critique Dr. Grudem’s endorsement is analogous to a David challenging a Goliath. That is not to suggest that Dr. Grudem is by any way of personal character or doctrine a “Philistine”, but rather my lowly stature and credentials compared to his Ph.D from Cambridge seems to be asking for a rather lopsided debate. Add on top of that his incredibly long theological textbook on the subject of cultural engagement makes this critique almost seem sophomoric. However, to allow his thoughts which might carry incredible influence amongst evangelicals to remain unchallenged seems equally offensive to me. I respect the good doctor immensely and agree with his opening remarks that Christian people will disagree and yet must find ways to respect each other in that discussion. That being said, I am completely surprised and to a degree disappointed that this is where the conservative, Biblical, theologian has landed. Especially when he has advocated theological positions through the years which have unapologetically upheld the standard of God’s Word against what is theologically popular or trendy.
Dr. Grudem admits that as the primaries started he could not support Donald Trump and even advocated against him. I do not know upon what basis that advocation was made except to say that Dr. Grudem is known for his biblical precision which can only make me surmise that his lack of support was rooted in his biblical worldview. Yet now, he makes the case that support for Donald Trump would not violate a biblical worldview and in fact, might be supported by it. It is this type of theological schizophrenia from well-known evangelicals that has made this election cycle most frustrating. It is the fear of Hillary Clinton and the well established probabilities of her presidency juxtaposed to the skeptical hope of Donald Trump and the mystical future of his promises.
My critique of Dr. Grudem is summarized in FOUR (4) areas which I believe are leading evangelicals further down the road of disappointment and to national disaster.
1. An Inconsistent Hermeneutic applied in Elections.
What more serious accusation could be leveled against a distinguished professor of systematic theology than practicing an unsystematic theological conclusion? Dr. Grudem contends that Trump is “flawed”, but not “evil”. His use of vocabulary is important because that leaves the door open for ANY person practicing ANY behavior to be morally justifiable for a Christian to support. In fact, he goes so far to list those flaws comprehensively and declare that voting for Trump is “morally good and right”. As a theologian, Dr. Grudem is well aware of the doctrine of depravity and how we all are subject to the frailties of our humanity, but what is astounding to me is that he considers none of these “flaws” (which the Scripture calls “sins”) could be disqualifying for civil service.
I have written before that Romans 13:4, 6; clearly references civil leaders as “ministers” in God’s sight. If we are to believe that the church’s ministers are to be qualified by some minimal standard of conduct, then it is not some unattainable expectation that our civil officials would have similar expectations. Especially ones who have unequivocally stated that they have no need to ask for forgiveness and have yet to retract that publicly. Is there any “flaw” that Dr. Grudem would consider so egregious that it might disqualify them from the presidency? Apparently yes, because he is most vehemently opposed to Clinton (as am I), but the question that remains unanswered is upon what basis or standard does the GOP candidate get a pass while the Democratic candidate gets nailed? He answers that question later in his endorsement and I will examine momentarily in this critique.
Dr. Grudem will critique those of us who are attempting to be consistent in our biblical application of qualification with regards to the two major party candidates. While never stating it precisely, our application appears to be morally wrong if indeed his is morally right. I find it fascinating that those of us who are #nolesseroftwoevil advocates are constantly reproved for using the Old Testament qualifications of candidates (Exodus 18:21) while advocates for Trump apply all kinds of Old Testament prophecies and stories in their attempt to support Trump as being analogous to some Israeli King. My question to Dr. Grudem and others would be, “Why is your eisegesis more accurate than our exegesis? Why can you inflict our current scenario on an ancient scene when we cannot derive an ancient principle to apply to our contemporary scene?” For me, the answer is quickly becoming political preference rather than biblical fidelity.
2. The Baptism of Pragmatism
Dr. Grudem, who is known for his biblical fidelity, moves quickly to a list of concerns we have as evangelicals (of which I concur) in his article. The case is made that Trump is a more pragmatic choice in seeing these concerns addressed or changed. In fact, he quotes a minor prophet concerning “seeking the welfare of a nation” and then leaps to the conclusion that any vote outside of one for Trump is helping Hillary. Therefore, a vote for Trump is morally right because we “cannot stand by and do nothing”. I have called this type of reasoning “situational pragmatism”. It is when normally consistent biblical worldview thinkers suspend their worldview in order to justify a more pragmatic approach due to what they consider “extenuating circumstances”. The colloquial phrase would be that they are trying “to help God out” or “the intention justifies the methodology”.
Pragmatism is a virtue that is difficult to prove by Scripture. Is there really a need to list the scores of stories where pragmatism was eschewed and obedience to God’s Word was implemented? Since when do we as believers default to pragmatism just because it “seems” to be the way to go? I seem to remember a verse that states, “There is a way that seems right to man, but the end thereof is death” (Proverbs 14:12). If that isn’t applicable to unbridled pragmatism, then perhaps any sin or pragmatic methodology can be baptized as permissible by God. I am confident that Dr. Grudem would reject that line of reasoning for he is a committed complimentarian and would reject suspending gender roles because of pragmatic concerns, so I can only assume that he has compartmentalized his election philosophy outside of his biblical worldview. In essence, Dr. Grudem feels it is now time to “help God out”, by suspending clear Scripture in selecting leadership because the choices we are presented demand it. That is bad theology.
3. The Authority of Probability
I do not know if Dr. Grudem is a theological cessationist or a continuationist, therefore I will critique his list of what Trump would conceivable do as President with the term “probability” instead of the word “prophecy”. Many ministers of the Gospel seem to have the curtain unveiled before them concerning Trump’s actions and policies in the future. Yes, I have heard all that Trump has promised. Yes, I know Clinton’s track record. However, Dr. Grudem ostensibly wrote a policy paper for Trump that can only be based in probability. What are the chances? Who really knows? The question becomes, do we as Christians trust the probabilities of Trump executing those promises (some of which are projections of our hopes that have zero chance of happening), or, do we follow the pattern of Scripture by evaluating people by their “fruit”? At no time does Dr. Grudem suggest that Donald Trump is a perfect candidate, in fact, he lists most of the concerns that almost all of us have towards him. The question Dr. Grudem never answers is why he thinks Trump is biblically qualified to be empowered by vote to this position. It is without question that Christians have and will be ruled by morally corrupt, flawed, and evil people. The question that is never answered is, are we required to empower those people to leadership? I can accept God’s providence in allowing an Ahab or Jezebel to rule, but am I expected to empower either one to that position?
Dr. Grudem never wrestles with the theological possibility of 3rd party candidates. He never considers the ways of God in Scripture of pulling people out of obscurity for His purposes or calling His people into a strategy which defies human logic and probabilities. I can assure you the stories of Gideon, Jehoshaphat, and Joshua would not fit the filter of “probability”. We are not called as Christians to watch polling data, consider conventional political wisdom, or choose between two false choices. We are called to obey God fearlessly even at risk of ridicule. Earthly probabilities do not trump (no pun intended) Scriptural precept.
4. Yielding to a situational ethic.
The reason this election is causing Christians so much consternation is because we have been drawn from the simplicity of obedience. As a pastor friend of mine, Cary Gordon, states, “Obedience is simple; disobedience is complicated”. This election cycle has caused division and confusion in the ranks of Christians because we intuitively know that we are applying a situational ethic to our vote. We are suspending our normal clarity in order to fit into a false paradigm. People, like Dr. Grudem I fear, are performing theological acrobatics to fit Trump into a biblically plausible choice.
Dr Grudem goes so far as to attack what he calls, “the fallacy of no lesser of two evils”. He calls this “reductionism” which reduces every argument to one factor when the situation requires multiple considerations or factors. Aside from the error that the #nolesseroftwoevil movement has entered into reductionism (even Grudem listed more than a dozen reasons to reject Trump), at what point could any social issue or moral concern be labeled as reductionism? Is Grudem suggesting that a Christian can conceivably vote for a pro-choice candidate in the future as long as they are less pro-choice than their opponent? Is he suggesting that we could vote for and empower a transgendered candidate as long as we are looking at the total policy package? Reductionism sounds academic and plausible as a reason to suspend your biblical worldview and jump on a candidate’s bandwagon, but are you really willing to live with where that argument will feasibly lead you? At what point do you draw the line of compromise and simply say, “My conscience is captive to the Scripture. Here I stand, I can do no other”. (Martin Luther)
That is the danger of situational ethics. It causes us to evaluate circumstances based on what WE think is best and not what God says is best. Our consternation as evangelicals is a reflection of what has been happening for years in the church which is the slow slide away from biblical and moral objectivity. Our authority has become our “feelings” and what we think is best. My concern is that Dr. Grudem has given the green light for that reality to be justified. Voting is as much a biblical concern for the Christian as any other aspect of life.
As I conclude, I want to say again that this critique is about as difficult a writing as I have ever done. Dr. Grudem’s books, lectures, and insight have been foundational for so many with regards to the challenges of our culture. Again, I hope this has come across as respectful and civil. I take no pleasure in challenging someone who I know shares many of the same concerns and goals that I would espouse. I simply believe the time has come for Christians to embrace the simplicity of Exodus 18:21, even if it means voting third party, and then after we have obeyed, we can rest, knowing that God is at work in our fearless obedience.
Dominic Campbell
July 30, 2016 at 4:07 amWhile I agree with you, can you help me understand how can we know that the qualifications in Exodus 18:21 are God’s qualifications? Perhaps I don’t have a full grasp of the context, but these came as a suggestion from Jethro to Moses in how he should select leaders. How do we conclude that they indeed came from God and that they apply to laypeople and not leaders selecting subordinates?
Kevin Baird
July 30, 2016 at 12:30 pmMoses was leading a nation and was setting up the civil government. His father-in-law’s input was used by God to establish that initial government. By seeing this pattern in Scripture, we can know there is an “inspired” aspect to the character qualifications of civil leadership.
Dominic Campbell
July 30, 2016 at 10:30 pmBut how do we demonstrate from scripture, that Jethro was indeed used by God? Was it because God had not objected in anyway (direct revelation or judgement)? If so, I can accept that. However, it would help me to see more corroboration from elsewhere in scripture. I’ll just have to do more studying.
marlin
July 31, 2016 at 1:49 pmso vote for Hilary ? i see gotcha
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:28 pmYou obviously have not read this blog site.
Voting to empower a candidate outside of the 2 party system is not a vote for Hillary. That is a red herring.
I do not want HC in office, but that is the repercussion of many years of rebellion to God. Now, obedience to God might cost us in some ways. However, as much as I might fear Hillary…I fear God more.
P Marshall
August 1, 2016 at 4:20 pmBut it is- a vote for anyone other than Trump IS a vote for Hillary – a vote for the Libertarian candidate, Gary Johnson may seem more prudent (even though he allows for abortions in some cases) but will NOT do anything but give away a vote. There is no way for him to get enough to be elected. The other person running, Weld – believes in abortion up until 9 months gestation.
I don’t understand why the church is so concerned about a “moral dilemma” when we are not voting for a minister or pastor – we are voting for a political candidate and this country has long since given up on God. There is no one person running that is “Christian” – so we have to look out for the future of this country by electing someone who MAY put in the right Supreme Court justices – we know Hillary will not do that. SO – there is only one other candidate left – and then we will have to pray for good people to surround him.
I will blame all of the “Moral Highground” Christians if Hillary is elected and the Supreme Court turns leftist – cause this country to even turn more to the evil
Kyle Lawrence
August 2, 2016 at 12:43 pmSince you are questioning Dr. Grudem’s hermeneutic, I will do the same for you. Exodus 18:21 does not apply in a presidential election. To view the verse within the context, Jethro was telling Moses how to select public servants, of that we agree. However, these were senators and representatives on the national, state, and local levels. The harder the issue to higher up it would go, eventually reaching Moses and then presumably God depending upon the issue. In such an instance, God was ultimately the King of Israel, as evidenced when He says “they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being King over them,” to Samuel.
Back to Exodus, God chose Moses to lead His people, thus conferring on him the responsibilities of King, in a manner of speaking of course. Given that, we vote for no one, but wait for God to lead or to call someone out to the desert for a fiery conversation at the bush. Given that both of those are either a) unknown (as in when Christ will return, or b) unlikely, we must make the best moral choice for the country.
Grudem’s point is not as much that Trump is a moral choice but rather of the dangerousness of HC in office. Given that, voting for Trump is moral, simply because it stops the immoral liberal ideology.
Lastly, the only question we need to ask ourselves is did I vote McCain and more recently Romney. If either is true, you cannot suddenly have a crisis of conscience in how you vote. If you held your nose and voted because you knew Obama would be a disaster, then you need to do the same. McCain is as wicked as Trump and even more so on some issues. Romney is a member of a cult, that believe Jesus to be created and the Bible to be flawed. A vote for either of those negates this moral self-righteousness that has emerged simply because you don’t like or are offended by a candidate.
Chris Lepper
August 2, 2016 at 10:05 pmI think calling it a ” red herring ” is to suggest we ignore the past and the outcomes of other elections where a third party candidate garnered enough votes to change the outcome. Christians sitting home because they couldn’t vote for a Mormon instead gave us a Muslim.
The Lord can appoint whomever He desires to lead our country and ,in fact, will do so. Asking Christians to believe a vote for a third party will make no difference is to ask them to vote without wisdom. We cannot know what God will do. It is our responsibility to act prudently.
Jenell Brinson
August 3, 2016 at 4:47 amHillary is a life long Christian. She has been a devoted Methodist since early childhood. Agree with her political positions of not, she doesn’t deserve having her Christian faith ignored and denied by her detractors.
P Marshall
August 4, 2016 at 4:59 pmJanell – you know a Christian by their fruits and Hillary has proven herself far from Christianity – she even thinks a baby has no rights to life until just before it breaths it’s first breath – VERY unbiblical!
Jim Lewis
August 5, 2016 at 4:49 amThank you for your response to Grudem.
While I may not be as well-read as Mr. Grudem, I don’t agree with his position. I initially thought his article was satirical . . . I still hope it was.
When I look at our current crop of candidates, I can’t ignore ethics and morality in my choice. As POTUS, character and temperament is paramount. I believe both Clinton and Trump are basically unethical, immoral and lack the character to lead America.
Yes, the choice of Justices at all levels is critical, but not at the expense of the totality of the position of POTUS. We still have limitations via Congress’ ratification of appointees.
Therefore, given the choices in front of us – and the primary duty of POTUS to defend the Constitution – my choice is Libertarian Party: Johnson/Weld. [I don’t buy into those who say I am “wasting my vote” or thereby voting for Hillary. If enough people of ethics and morals voted as I will, the electoral vote would be split and the election sent to the House – and they would not choose Trump.]
Some Christians may disagree due to their stand on religious issues … however, we are not a theocracy, nor should that be our goal (that’s the role of the Kingdom to come). As a Constitutional Republic, our primary goal is defending that form of government by choosing leaders who will do the same.
The POTUS alone can’t repeal abortion on demand or protect religious liberties. So these issues should not be the primary factors in our vote. As protecting the Constitution IS the primary factor, that should define our vote.
In the end of all things, we get the leadership we deserve – and in this post-modern, post-Christian era that is our lot … until His Kingdom comes.
Amy Borghesi
July 31, 2016 at 11:16 pmIf the choice was Hillary and someone a smidgen more evil than her, who you gladly vote for her and mock those who wouldn’t? Is voting for the highest office in our land all relative? And would you encourage those of us who pray repeatedly that God will give us wisdom, and show us we are wrong if He DOES want us to vote for Trump…would you encourage us to disobey God??!! I’m sorry if my tone is not what it should be, but I have lost patience with those who think that voting for Trump is more godly than obeying what God has made clear to many of us!
J May
August 1, 2016 at 10:10 am” I have lost patience with those who think that voting for Trump is more godly than obeying what God has made clear to many of us!”
No one is saying that. Not even Dr. Grudem, so please don’t put words in his mouth. If you feel led to vote for Hillary, or some other candidate, fine. You should vote your conscience. If I feel led to vote for Trump, then you should be fine with that as well.
This is what Grudem said: “American citizens need patience with each other in this difficult political season. Close friends are inevitably going to make different decisions about the election. We still need to respect each other and thank God that we live in a democracy with freedom to differ about politics. And we need to keep talking with each other – because democracies function best when thoughtful citizens can calmly and patiently dialog about the reasons for their differences. This is my contribution to that discussion.”
His opinion is that it is not immoral to vote for Trump. He stated it positively – that it is moral, but I doubt he would say it is immoral to vote for a third party person. It’s just that he personally disagrees with the reasons his friends have used to arrive at that conclusion.
Like Grudem said, “American citizens need patience with each other in this difficult political season. Close friends are inevitably going to make different decisions about the election.” It’s OK to express your opinion – like Dr. Grudem did and like Kevin Baird did. It’s OK to have different opinions.
Ellen Thweatt
August 3, 2016 at 7:44 amAmy, I think you are saying that God has made it clear to so many of us to keep standing with our conviction not to vote for Trump and you ended by saying you’ve lost patience with those who think that voting for Trump is more godly than obeying what God has clearly shown to many of us….. YES! I like the way you phrased it! And like you said, we’ve prayed for God to show us if we’re wrong, but we just keep seeing more clearly – YES!
Dale Fessenden
August 4, 2016 at 1:55 pmHillary is a declared Methodist & Obama in 2008 was a declared Christian. By their fruits ye shall know them.
Kevin Bailey
August 1, 2016 at 2:18 amI’ve noticed that when Trump supporters have no cogent reply, they simply fall back on “so you’re voting for HIllary.”
Kyle Lawrence
August 2, 2016 at 12:25 pmHere is your cogent reply. Let’s break the voting populace down into numbers to show how this plays out. Though the percentages have moved around generally it’s a 40/30/30 split. 40% R/ 30 D/ 30 I. Those may not be accurate anymore but for the sake of argument indulge me. Of that 40%, half is the evangelical vote, long accounted for swinging elections. Suppose that HC gets all Dem votes and ⅓ Ind. She is at 40. The evangelical vote abandons Trump to 3rd party. 20% Trump, 20 split among 3rd parties. The remaining Ind. vote splits as well. For sake of ease, let’s make it 50/50. That would be the roughly 10% that 3rd party usually pulls depending on the candidate. That leaves Trump 30, Ind. 30, and Hilary 40. She wins.
Ellen Thweatt
August 3, 2016 at 7:32 amFaith Marlin…. Faith in God. How is voting with the strong motivation of fear going to produce a blessed nation? God doesn’t reward irritional behavior with blessing. It never pays to trust any man or woman more than God. Never.
Keith A. Wimer
August 8, 2016 at 2:33 pmWhatever Mr. Baird might be advocating here, voting for Mrs. Clinton isn’t it. That is just a ridiculous comment, made by a Trump supporter I would venture to guess.
Dr. Howard L. Smith
August 1, 2016 at 2:27 pmThank you, for your thoughtful, detailed and well researched reply. Bigotry wrapped in prayer is still bigotry. It is especially troubling when Biblical resources are co-opted to advance harmful thoughts and actions. Again, my thanks for your work.
Mark Ludwig
August 3, 2016 at 1:59 amSorry to jump in here, but can’t seem to comment directly. Mr. Trump has created a personality cult which hijacked a political party on the way to some kind of neo fascist America I can’t recognize. I really hope more Christians of all political stripes recognize just how crazy and mean this guy is. All ideology aside, he’s just too vindictive and irascible to have the vast power of POTUS at hand.
Bill Fortenberry
July 30, 2016 at 6:29 pmDominic, let me recommend my booklet “We the People: The Biblical Precedent for Popular Sovereignty.” In that booklet, I answer your question by appealing to the parallel passage in Numbers 11:16-25. There “we discover that while God did not directly command the use of popular elections, yet He chose to place His sanction upon that method by giving the elders the same authority that He had formerly given to Moses. These men who were selected through the election of the people were given the right to stand with Moses before the immediate presence of God in the tabernacle and hear the voice of the Lord with their own ears. These elders were not mere ministers of Moses to aid him in managing the affairs of the people, they were declared to be his equals, and they shared with him the responsibility of proclaiming the words of the Lord to the people. There is no higher sanction that God could have given upon the use of popular elections.”
You can read the entire booklet online at: http://www.increasinglearning.com/we-the-people.html
Let me add, however, that I actually prefer the requirements as listed in II Samuel 23:3 over the other lists. In this verse, the requirements are stated in a universal statement from God rather than as a recording of the practices of ancient Israel. The format of II Samuel 23:3 is identical to the format used in I Timothy and Titus to give the qualifications for pastors and deacons. Anyone arguing that II Samuel 23:3 does not apply today would have to also argue that the pastoral requirements no longer apply today.
Scott Scrimshaw
August 1, 2016 at 7:06 amThere really is another choice:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jwOpD-YdoUj7ItI2SpJo9zVxtv4OKfKpKVPs6YxhL9k/edit?usp=drive_web
Amber
August 3, 2016 at 7:12 amI’ve been struggling with this election cycle. I understand that Trump is a polarizing figure with conservatives and I do not particularly like him, but who is the alternative?? The Green Party and Libertatrian candidates are as objectionable as HC. Do we refuse to participate in the process?
Lisa
August 3, 2016 at 12:16 pmTHANK YOU, Dr. Baird!
Grudem’s position has SHOCKED, STUNNED, & GRIEVED me.
THIS is exactly why.
Mike Jeffery
August 4, 2016 at 5:10 amJust a general statement. Christians like myself understand the nature of prayer and the need for faith. We believe God is always in control. As such, since both candidates are human and therefore sinful, it is impossible to ever choose a candidate who would mesh with the high standards of God. So, if we believe God is always in control, the person who God wants to win will…but not necessarily for good things but to bring on scenarios for the end of the world and/or bad things. Hitler did not come to power while God was distracted is my point. We cannot verify the relationship a candidate has with an Almighty God no more than we can vouch for the relationship the owner of the store where we buy groceries has with God. The only perfect government will be a theocracy with the Lord in rule…nothing we will do in any election will ever keep this from occurring. Thank you for hearing me out! God Bless All!
Brian Keefer
August 8, 2016 at 1:15 amI cannot help but ask the question, why attack Dr. Grudem when he has given his political view point and personal viewpoint? Makes me also question which pocket you pull from for the Democratic campaign. We can tell it’s not your own! In your post you vehemently are against Clinton but isn’t that which is a personal attack exactly what the Democratic Party is doing every chance they get?
HAZEL FICKLING
August 24, 2016 at 7:58 pmTo Mike Jeffery, your comments I agree with. Everyone has a right to an opinion but only God knows the truth. “My ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts” He says
Brian Keefer
August 8, 2016 at 1:17 amAnd that comment was to the author of the post, Kevin Baird, not use Sir. I apologize for hitting reply in the wrong place.
Rod Holmes
July 30, 2016 at 9:09 amThank you for your respectful response to Dr. Grudem’s opinion. I would like to know your thoughts to the point that Scripture clearly teaches that it is God who appoints world leaders (Rom. 13:1) and we have a Biblical precedent of God using a pagan King (Cyrus) to restore Jerusalem. Mr. Trump has pledged to uphold/restore godly principles; I don’t think we as Christians have any other viable option but to take him at his word. A third party vote would be a wasted vote (historically/realistically speaking). When I vote for Mr. Trump it will be with a keen awareness of his flaws but a conviction that doing so is not a moral violation but a moral obligation to do my part in voting into office the person who best represents the policies that we as evangelicals espouse. We clearly know that person is not Hilary Clinton.
Kevin Baird
July 30, 2016 at 12:33 pmThanks for stopping by.
If Trump wins the election could he be then be a “Cyrus” in waiting? Perhaps. But the question is how do we empower our civil leadership and by what standard and qualification?
This view of sovereignty might also state that Hillary is a “Deborah” in waiting (of which I do not believe). The key is not how God chooses to use these leaders, but what He expects of us by way of obedience in the voting booth. Can we empower biblically disqualified candidates? Where would that precept be found in Scripture? For me…it simply is not there.
Frank pontillo
July 30, 2016 at 8:22 pmVery good point. People are willing to “trust and admitted con-artist that says he plays to people’s fantasies and hyperbole is ok to make deals. They say well maybe God will change Trump. Kind of like marrying an unbeliever and hoping God will save the person.
Brad Bates
July 31, 2016 at 4:06 amYeah, I call that “missionary voting” lol.
Shar
July 31, 2016 at 6:30 pmI and a lot of other people believe that God will change Trump. I believe that prayer can change people. He made a wise choice when he chose Pence. Someone who is supposedly so evil could not raise children as beautiful as his are. I do not mean in looks necessarily. You Christians are such skeptics. I wish you would stop picking things apart. I am a Christian also, but I do believe and have faith that God can change things. I wish there were more people thinking that way.
Terry Shryock
August 1, 2016 at 1:28 amBy that line of reasoning, Shar, why hesitate to support Hillary? Or is she beyond God’s ability and or desire to change for the better?
Kevin Bailey
August 1, 2016 at 2:20 amTrump himself doesn’t believe he NEEDS to change, or repent for anything he’s done in the past. He said that himself. People who believe his con will live to regret it.
Frank
August 1, 2016 at 6:09 pmBut, God couldn’t change Hillary? Appears to me that is what you are saying.
Which of these candidates best fit the following:
Matthew 25:35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Isaiah 58:10
If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday.
James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Proverbs 28:27
Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.
Rose Schmidt
August 1, 2016 at 1:40 pmTrump has accepted Christ…he is not an unbeliever….he may have much to learn as we all did as new believers and still do …none of us is perfect.
Juanita J Leosh
August 2, 2016 at 4:00 pmwere you there at the moment that he accepted Christ? He is a pathological liar and would not hesitate to lie about something that would further his power. As flawed a Christian as I am, I believe that those who truly have accepted Christ believe that we need His forgiveness. Trump clearly states that he doesn’t need God’s forgiveness. Don’t be fooled… this man is the work of Satan who is the great deceiver. https://jfoblogs.wordpress.com/2016/07/30/stop-pretending-about-trump-please/
Keith Morse
August 2, 2016 at 6:25 pmHave you heard Mr. Trump profess Christ? I’m still waiting. Third-party professions by people seeking their own advantage don’t count.
Liz Clark
August 4, 2016 at 4:04 amNo one who believes he has no need of forgiveness (because he believes he has no sin) has ever “accepted Christ.” Those who have no sin have no need of Christ.
Nancy Heinige
August 1, 2016 at 5:51 pmRespectfully I must say that you seem to have completely missed the entire point . The word says that the child of God is led by the Spirit of God by His inspired word. Unfortunately , it’s rhetoric blogs like this that lead Christians down the wrong path that have kept their head’s under a bushel for decades hoping someone else will solve the problem while we sit by and ring our hands and vote for a third party Candidate who has no chance of winning the election . I’m sorry but to me this is idiocy ! To quote Einstein ” the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result”
God speaks His will to the heart of His children who are truly listening for His will above the noise of literary know it alls.
Consider these verses of scripture ,
For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom , but the weakness of God is stronger than human strength , brothers and sisters , think of what you were when you were called . Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential , not many were noble birth. But God chose the foolish things “of the world ” to shame the wise and the weak “things of the world ” to shame the strong . God chose the lowly ” things of this world” and the despised things – and the things that are not -thing so nullify the things that are, so that No One may boast before Him. It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus , who has become for us wisdom from God – that is our righteousness , holiness and redemption . Therefore , as it is written : ” Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord . ” 1 Corinthians 1:25-31
As Christians we All too soon forget where we came from , and not to mention where we still fail in our own character and Christ likeness ! And then we try to hold a worldly man whom God is not done with yet to some form of moral code that we cannot ourselves attain to. Really?!
I do believe that if we Christians will get off our high rocking horses and quit playing around , we can be apart of God’s redemptive work and see America become one great nation under God again . I do believe that He has indicated that He will use Trump and Pence to draw the plumb line and begin to rebuild this country revealing His sovereign rule over this One Nation under God!
I appeal to all Christians everywhere . Don’t be ignorant, rebellious and unbelieving! Do your part in Jesus name !
Bec
August 1, 2016 at 10:32 pmNancy, your description of insanity in Einstein’s quote, “…doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result” sounds like exactly what Christians have been doing over and over again in recent elections. We keep voting Republican hoping for a “different result.” Where has that gotten us? Can we not be a part of God’s work by voting for who aligns with scripture and allow HIM to be in control?
FW
August 2, 2016 at 5:18 amBec, I would argue that many Christians stayed home in the last election because Romney was a Mormon–a faith that has many of the same biblical principles that Judeo-Christianity has. I know Mormons are viewed in a negative light, because they are considered a false religion or a cult, by many Christians. I have no facts to back this up, but I believe/hold the opinion that Obama won the 2012 election because many evangelicals stayed home on election day because they couldn’t/wouldn’t vote for Romney. Sadly, I see the same thing happening this election. Yes, Trump is a wildcard and is very rough around the edges, however he’s never held public office before so we only have his personal life judge–one that I’ve not seen a lot of. One thing I do know is that he surrounds himself with the best people–i.e. Mike Pence–because he knows that it is what it takes to succeed. Clinton on the other hand has 30+ years of experience that we can draw from I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that she CAN NOT be our next president!
The whole idea of the Supreme Court and the fact that she has the power to shape the face of it for the next generation should be enough motivation to do everything in our power as Christians to step up to the plate and elect Trump and pray that he will do what he says he will do.
Ellen Thweatt
August 3, 2016 at 8:00 amI agree with you Bec. People who can say this are trusting in God’s power and Soverignity, not in a man or woman. I have finally resolved, after much inward struggling from listening to the urging of those who are basing their ‘vote’ choice solely on a big fear that HC will win, that I will not vote for someone Who does not represent God’s values nor fear Him. If HC wins and it goes down like people fear, maybe America will start looking to God again as her Savior.
Kathy Armstrong
August 1, 2016 at 11:30 pmJust a thought – maybe the insanity is continuing to vote for either a democrat or a republican while expecting things to change.
Carolyn
August 2, 2016 at 10:02 pmInteresting that you would use Einstein’s quote. Could it also be insanity to keep voting for the lesser of two evils expecting things to change? Or electing someone because they’re not someone else who is worse? Or electing the last choice you would pick but because he’s the nominee?
Folks seem to think that God can and will use Trump. He might. We don’t know that. But He also might use Clinton. For all the acrobatics Christians seem to be twisting their justifications for voting for the least qualified because he’s not as bad as Hillary while telling the rest of us Conscience voters that we’re either giving the vote to Hillary or not trusting God to use and change Trump don’t consider that they’re putting God into a box. You folks don’t trust that God can shake the powers that be if everyone voted for the person they believed is the best (not the last one standing)?
Voting for the lesser of two evils is how we’re in this mess. People have compromised and justified it by voting against something, never considering that we ought to be voting FOR something.
Doesn’t seem like people who are standing on principle and conscience are rebellious and ignorant, but the anger coming from Christians who try and shame other believers for not toeing the same ‘have to vote’ rhetoric they are choosing seems to be an indicator on who believes the bigger picture and who believes in the things of this world only.
Kevin Wright
August 1, 2016 at 9:58 pmThis “Cyrus in waiting” argument, is so vague and wishful, it illustrates perfectly the ethical contortions, that Christians are willing to perform to justify voting for a despicable human being. Cyrus would be a name lost to history, had not Cyrus trusted Daniel. Daniel’s claim to fame, was extraordinary WISDOM granted by God to him because he kept the faith, as a hostage in a foreign land, NO MATTER THE COST. Voting for Trump, would not qualify as “keeping the faith.” Voting for Trump rejects, thrift, manners, Godly wisdom and a plethora of Christian teachings.
Christians, instead of wistfully longing for a Cyrus, Be a Daniel. Stand up for the teachings of Proverbs, the life of Joseph, the sufferings of Daniel, the higher moral standards of Christ. In all my life as a Christian, I have yet to hear a sermon in praise of Cyrus. The Book of Daniel, is the lessons of the life of Daniel – God’s rewards for faith in the face of captivity, torture or death.
What cannot be left on the table, is Trump’s willingness to smear, and lie for political gain. Perfidy of this kind, will NEVER BE REWARDED BY GOD. The examples are legion, but one in particular, should shake every Christian, to their supernatural core – Trump is willing to use your Christian testimony, your admissions of sin, your conversion testimony, as a tool to personally and politically DESTROY YOU.
Trump took Dr. Ben Carson’s testimony of transformation, and made him out to be a child molester. When a fallen man, is no longer free to confess sin, for fear that such testimony will be used to destroy their career, and their reputation, then Christianity will be robbed of all power to transform the heart.
Is that not why you are a Christian? Were you not once lost, and now you see? What kind of man, would take this divine transformation, and make it a crass political tool? What kind of Christian, would vote for a man who would do such violence to the very foundations of our faith? By all scriptual tests, Trump is not saved, but you, dear Christian Friend, may have had your heart of stone REPLACED with a heart of flesh. I pray that there is fruit in your life that bears witness. Public Confession, contrition, and transformation are the hallmarks of our faith. This process is our ticket to heaven. Are you willing to trade all that, for a speculative bargain about immigration reform, or a potential Supreme court pick? From a man who is an accomplished LIAR?
I urge all my fellow Christians to shout loudly, that we will REJECT, any politician, who so brutalizes the most vulnerable moment in our Christian walk.
Brenda Purington
August 2, 2016 at 2:25 amIf Christians can only “empower biblically qualified candidates” we wouldn’t have been able to cast a vote for anyone since Lincoln. If even then. A true man of God could not be involved in politics, if he expects to accomplish anything, without compromising his values or turning a blind eye. You’re perception of a man’s righteousness is seemingly based on outward appearance. Many a politician have talked the talk and looked the part while robbing the country blind. Trump is the only one calling it as it truly is.
Dale Fessenden
August 4, 2016 at 2:13 pm“Can we empower biblically disqualified candidates?” This is precisely the quagmire. To put is succinctly, did you vote for President in 2012? If you did, I don’t need to know which of the “biblically disqualified” candidates you voted for.
Angela Ullman
July 30, 2016 at 10:21 pmI wholeheartedly agree with you, Rod Holmes!
William Horosz
July 31, 2016 at 12:31 pm100% in agreement with you Rod Holmes.
Maybe the author should take a look at the Old Testament Kings. Many of them had multiple flaws but God used them for good in advancing his kingdom and protecting his people.
I, for one, want a President who will protect our Constitution by appointing Constitutionalist judges to the SCOTUS. You can count on the exact opposite with Hillary.
Need I also remind the author that Hillary Clinton is an disciple of Saul Alinsky.
Dr. Grudem could not be more correct.
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:32 pmIf DT will act so righteously and fulfill his promises….then why the pagan prayers at the RNC? Why no mention of being pro-life in his speech? Why allow an open homosexual to flaunt his life and advocate for transgendered bathrooms?
I’m sorry…your fear of Hillary is causing you to not fear the Lord.
The OT had many evil Kings which the people received due to the monarchical system of succession. Those Kings were never authorized by vote of the people to do what they did. The people endured that evil. A vote for Trump is to empower that evil. A big difference.
I understand why the Trump train is popular, but my discernment tells me it will be a crash for Christianity.
Sam Pollina
August 1, 2016 at 7:26 amYou may be smart, but I want to keep it simple….the Dem. Party mostly supports movements that do not meet most Christian values. Some Examples, separation of church and state, prayers in school, bible studies in school, mention of God in student speeches, same sex marriages, and the list goes on. Yes…I fear Hillary, I dont feel either candidate will be the the crash for Christianity as you put it , but strongly believe Hillary will have more damage to it than Trump.
Lori White
August 2, 2016 at 2:20 amWith all due respect, Sam Pollina, none of the things you list above are anything Christ taught, so they aren’t “Christian values” – they are right wing values. Christian values are the fruits of the Spirit, and the lessons of the Sermon on the Mount – blessed are the peacemakers, the meek, etc. Caring for the poor, the widows, the refugees (gasp!) is what Jesus taught. You’re free to value those other things above the things Christ taught, but please don’t call them “Christian values” – those are all fear based causes – not faith based.
Marc Stokes
August 1, 2016 at 11:04 pmWell said Rod Holmes!
Linda Wadsworth
August 2, 2016 at 2:45 amI agree with Rod Holmes and P Marshall. Don’t thow your vote to HC
Steven C. Kettler
August 2, 2016 at 12:47 pmThanks for your reply. I feel that it could very easily be argued that Kevin Baird’s response ignores key Doctrine — very generally, The Sovereignty of God, Utter Human Depravity, Divine Providence, The Character and Attributes of God, Soteriology, and on, and on. 1 Corinthians 13.
Politics is compromise with Absolute Truth in a fallen world. It is unfair to project upon any regenerate person the motive of abandoning Christian absolutes when they warn others of political deception.
To fully comprehend the issues of this election I believe a person must have lived and strived in the workplaces of Washington, DC and in the New York metropolitan area — and have done so for years.
Very simply, genuine love does not ignore injustice or evil, and particularly apostasy. “He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the Lord.” (Psalm 33:5). See also: Psalm 45:7; Psalm 99:4; Jeremiah 9:24; Psalm 1:5; Psalm 7:6; Psalm 11:3; Psalm 119:142; Psalm 145:17; Psalm 36:6; Hebrews 1:9; Revelation 15:3,4; Genesis 18:25; 2 Chronicles 19:7; Job 8:3; Job 34:12; Job 37:23.
Of course, much more could be said.
Bill Rhetts
July 30, 2016 at 12:12 pmThank you much for this article, I will share it on my social media platforms. This is disappointing news to me. I expect this from the non-saved world, and even from some of the sheeple; but not from such a noted scholar/under-Shepard as Grudem. Grudem’s reasons justifying his endorsement of Trump are not only unbiblical, they are anti-Biblical. Regardless how my social media friends vote, know that I love you. But I will be voting my Biblical conscience. Years ago when I was still a policeman my wife once said to me. “Bill if you cut your finger, you’d bleed blue.” My prayer now is that I would be known as a man, that if I cut my finger, I’d bleed Theology.
Kevin Baird
July 30, 2016 at 12:34 pmThanks for checking out the blog and commenting. I too tend to “bleed” theology…LOL!
Bill Rhetts
July 30, 2016 at 12:57 pmI have been blessed and learned by some of Grudem’s writings / publications. But anything that he publishes from this point on, I cannot trust it.
Kevin Baird
July 30, 2016 at 2:01 pmI understand your disappointment, however, he has a long track record of consistent biblical worldview thought. Elections, especially this one, is doing crazy things to people. I think their motive and intent is to save their nation for another generation to freely proclaim the Gospel, however, we all know what road good intentions paves.
I suspect Dr. Grudem will continue to put forth on target thoughts in the future. We all have had a crazy thought or two in our lives.
David Dusett
July 31, 2016 at 10:12 pmRegarding your statement, “I think their motive and intent is to save their nation for another generation to freely proclaim the Gospel.” Given our worsening spiritual complacency, perhaps God had in mind that this and future generations would proclaim the Gospel by living and proving it under the increasingly dire circumstances we could see under HC. We should rethink whether we ever should have trusted in the empty promises of liberty under a man like DT.
Shar
July 31, 2016 at 6:32 pmSo judgmental. Why not leave that to God?
David Dusett
July 31, 2016 at 11:57 pmMaybe this answer to your question will help: Because God leaves this judging to us. You see, when Jesus said, “Do not judge,” He was talking to lost people. Judging would have made them hypocrites. The Bible also says that the spiritual man judges all things. (1 Corinthians 2:15.) Christians are supposed to judge Christians to help us all grow and help everyone avoid repeating another Christian’s error. People who live in the Spirit and walk with Jesus, doing things God’s way, obtain the discernment to know right from wrong from God’s perspective. So, they can and even must judge based on the fruits they see from others that spring forth from the condition of their hearts.
Terry Shryock
August 1, 2016 at 1:40 amVery well said David! Somewhere along the line-seemingly overnight !– this misunderstood “do not judge others” mentality within society (AND the Church especially!) has truly gotten out of hand!
Peter Moon
July 30, 2016 at 1:25 pmThese candidates remind me of the days of the evil kings of Israel. The difference in our presidential politics is we get to choose which evil King will rule us. Evil, not being decided by man, is non negotiable. It is what God almighty says it is. Of the evil kings of Israel God simply said; “they did evil in the eyes of the Lord”. And that settles it.
DT chose two particularly grievous people to represent him and all who will vote for him to speak at the convention. One was an open proud homosexual who said nearly the same thing Dr. Grudem said; “it’s about beating Hillary. The other grievous thing was having a Muslim invoke his god over the convention. These both represent in my understanding of scripture as not only extremely sinful but provocative against the Sovereign Himself.
Dr. Grudem and for that matter, anyone who does not understand the severity of these grievances is no longer speaking for the cause of righteousness but projecting their fears and weaknesses upon the rest of the Church.
Now is the time to contend for the faith and demand of ourselves and those who govern us faithfulness and conformity to that which made us great to begin with. For it was not a man, but principled men and women who designed this nation to her greatness. Principles of Christianity and biblical values. Our Church leaders need to be speaking under the unction of God’s Spirit, not the spirit of fear.
2 Tim 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
Stating that I am in sin for not voting for trump makes me sad for the people believe it to be true.
There is a Holy Spirit who discerns for us what truth is. Anyone without the Spirit I have found is at best a good history teacher.
Kevin Baird
July 30, 2016 at 1:39 pmYou are spot on Peter Moon. There comes a moment you cannot reward a person or a party with your support when they purposefully grieve God. Appreciate your input and we continue to speak truth to a spiraling nation.
Brian Hauptman
July 30, 2016 at 6:18 pmInasmuch as the party has now aligned itself with the candidate, you seem to be advocating for another party that Christians CAN support. Is that your position?
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 2:50 amYes….Constitution Party (Darrell Castle) -or- America’s Party is good as well
Andy Prior
July 31, 2016 at 9:25 amCastle is inconsistent on life, believing that States operating under the 10th Amendment can override the unalienable Right to Life and the Equal Protection for Posterity that America’s Party and Tom Hoefling advocate for.
Please review the following sites/pages and decide if you disagree…
http://www.tomhoefling.com
http://www.selfgovernment.us/platform.html
http://www.equalprotectionforposterity.com
http://www.prolifeprofiles.com/tom-hoefling
Blessings.
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:34 pmI agree that Tom is a great candidate as well. Certainly considering him and hoping he is on the ballot in my state.
As I have said…NO candidate will be absolutely perfect, but are they qualified by Scripture. In my opinion Castle has not been disqualified.
Paul Fuller
July 30, 2016 at 1:51 pmSo thankful for your response to this. We need more people to standup and say what needs to be heard even if it makes us unpopular. I had another thought when I read Dr Grudem’s article:
He said “the most likely result is that Trump will do most or all of what he has said.” Grudem’s justification for that was 1) other politicians usually don’t change their mind after the campaign trail and 2) he’s changed his mind on the current trail. For his first argument, the classic example of politicians changing their mind post campaign trail is Bush senior’s famous quote “Read my lips: No new taxes” and what did he do? He changed his mind and introduced new taxes (because he realized he shouldn’t have made such a rash vow to begin with). Grudem’s second argument just undermines his first!
Maybe I misread Dr Grudem on those points, but it sounded pretty off to me.
Thank you Dr Baird.
Kevin Baird
July 30, 2016 at 2:02 pmThanks for stopping by. Your points are well taken
Terry Shryock
August 1, 2016 at 1:54 amWhy should Dr. Grudem (or anyone else for that matter) project DT to behave like something he despises and has based his ENTIRE platform strategy on NOT being; a politician!? Seems quite unlikely to this novice political strategist.
Rod Holmes
July 30, 2016 at 2:43 pmDavid Jeremiah wrote a piece last week imploring evangelicals to vote for the candidate who will appoint conservative Supreme Court Justices – because that is the critical issue here. He didn’t name Trump as that person to vote for but we all know that is what he was advocating. He pointed out that in the ’08 election 25 million evangelicals stayed home and did not vote. The travesty to the unborn if that happens again! I would encourage you to rethink your advise to Christians to not vote for Trump because he doesn’t fit your idea of a leader. I don’t know how much influence you carry but keep in mind the unborn when you council people not to vote for the person who right now has the best chance for restricting abortion rights. Have you considered that perhaps God has chosen Mr. Trump for this very purpose? God has done crazier things.
Kevin Baird
July 30, 2016 at 3:00 pmIt’s not that Trump doesn’t fit “my” idea of a leader, but rather he does not fit God’s idea of a leader. The bottom line is what does God require with regards to a civic leader? (See Exodus 18:21)
I have been an advocate for the preborn on both the street and the halls of legislatures. I get the seriousness of the moment. However, if you will study the appointment of SCOTUS judges you will see that republicans have been a problem as well. The question again is whether you expect Trump to hold firm to his word. He has had trouble doing this on several fronts through his life.
If Trump should win, I have no doubt that could will use him (Romans 8:28) in His sovereign purposes. The question is not, “Can God use a Jezebel or Ahab?” -or- “Will God potentially raise up a Cyrus?”; but rather, “As a Christian can I endorse so egregiously flawed and Scripturally unqualified candidate with my vote”. This is about fear of God…not fear of Hillary.
Thanks for your input…God bless and I appreciate your concern for our nation. We will both believe God will do something miraculous.
Andy Prior
July 31, 2016 at 9:37 amRod, the problem I see with your theory regarding the ’08 election is that the GOP has spent 43 years undermining the very idea they propose. Every SCOTUS abortion decision from Roe to the present day has been decided by majority GOP nominated SCOTUS Justices. The Roe court itself had 7 GOP nominated Justices who voted 6-1 in favor of Roe. In fact, the dissenting opinion was written by a Democrat nominated Justice.
I would say that the 25 million evangelicals that stayed home should be advocating for a candidate like Tom Hoefling of America’s Party who wants to use the words of the Declaration, the Preface, 5th and 14th Amendments to end the murder of innocents and bring healing to our land. The outline of the plan is available at http://www.EqualProtectionForPosterity.com and is a part of the Leadership Pledge on the America’s Party website – http://www.selfgovernment.us
If 25 million Americans who didn’t vote in ’08 supported a supposed “third” party candidate, it wouldn’t take that many defections from the GOP to win the Presidential election outright… just like the GOP candidate in 1860 – Abraham Lincoln.
Here’s some more “pragmatic” election math for you: According to polling data going back decades, Christians are 70+% of America’s population which is a little more than 230 million, assuming our current population is around 330 million.
If just 1 in 3 of those Christians were to vote in a unified manner for someone like Tom, he would receive 10 million more votes that Obama received in ’08!! No other candidate in history has come close… which would generate a total mandate to end abortion immediately!
Blessings.
FW
August 2, 2016 at 5:43 amThose numbers seem a little off to me. You’re assuming that all 230 million people who say they are “Christians” in polls are in fact born-again Bible believing Christians that would vote for a conservative born-again Christian candidate. I personally know several born-again Christians who regularly vote for Democrats because they believe in their progressive agenda because it closely aligns to in their words “what Christ would have done.” I would venture to say nearly half of those who call themselves Christians are only Christians in name only. This doesn’t take into account those who identify as Christian who are in the Democratic Party already, remember both Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton identify themselves as Baptist.
Mark P. Pra
July 30, 2016 at 4:00 pmLove the debate, but boil all the arguments down and I just want to know if in a war for Christianity we want to back a man that recognizes there is a war or one that thinks appeasement with anti-christians will bring about peace? Do we believe that God can use `unclean` animals to help his prophets/people? Do we need to vote only for candidates that have the moral fiber and qualifications as a pastor? Didn’t God use ungodly warriors to fight his cause? Or did God only speak or work through Godly men? Can you name any president that was totally qualified with moral and theological perfection? If not, can you tell me why we need to do so in this election?
One wants abortion, the other doesn’t.
One wants socialism, the other doesnt.
One sees no threat to Christianity, the other does.
One wants judges that supports a radical left wing agenda, the other wants conservative constitutional advocates.
Need we go on to make a pros and cons list here?
Christians need to look at the big picture because when political correctness becomes law, Christianity will have to retreat to the catacombs!
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 2:52 amNo one has ever said the word “perfection”. That word is foisted upon this argument as a straw an which is easier to attack. The point is that DT is unqualified upon the basis of what Grudem clearly points out in his article.
Mark P. Pra
July 30, 2016 at 4:10 pmExodus 18:21. This is a wonderful set of criteria for a theocracy, but this is not the model for a republic.
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 2:54 amNews flash… We already live in a theocracy. America’s “theos” is itself. We worship at the idol of self. We have made our appetites our god and we are ruled by it.
Craig D
July 31, 2016 at 2:27 pmWould’ve been interested to see a more thoughtful response to this. America is flawed … That goes without saying. But clearly, Israel was a nation unlike any other. God took direct action to redeem His people from slavery, gave them their law, and established their system of govt. They did not even have a King in Gods design. So, my question would be can we clearly see from scripture that we are called to apply biblical qualifications for leadership to the point of not casting a vote in a two party system where there are only 2 choices given? I could see sitting out more clearly if both candidates openly supported policies that went against conviction. Here we have one who does IMO (Clinton) and one who doesn’t openly (DT). And I agree that his character doesn’t give confidence about his follow through.
I think we would’ve been better served by a call to prayer for that third party candidate to rise up and for the God of miracles to give us a worthy leader, but if it comes down to Clinton v trump, I’m not sure you’ve adequately proven from scripture that it’s unbiblical pragmatism to cast a DT vote.
Brad Bates
August 5, 2016 at 7:34 pmSometimes the most thoughtful response is a short response. Dr Bairds response wasn’t incorrect.
Michael S Payne
July 31, 2016 at 2:37 pmWell said Dr Baird. Mark, you may be missing an important inevitability. Every law is an imposition of morals, values, beliefs, assumptions…. religion, or procedural to a moral law. Christians appose abortion because “Thou shalt not kill!” The alternative to acquiring our ethics from God’s precepts, principles, and normative patterns, is to determine good and evil for ourselves. 1776 did not happen in a vacuum. These were the spiritual sons of John Calvin, John, Knox, the Puritans. These great men made some serious deposits in our nations spiritual and ethical bank account, the founders wrote a check from that account. Non-Christian historians that have integrity, have rightly called Calvin, the virtual founder of America. King George, upon hearing about the hostilities in the colonies, called it a church rebellion. Our nations criminal law, tort law, contract law, property law was mostly lifted right out of Exodus 20, the ten commandments, and the rest of the OT Case Laws. Likewise, our civil government being formed as three branches, with separation of power was an outworking of God’s sovereignty and the doctrine of the trinity. One body politic, three branches, equal but separate. This is why an intelligent survey of history demonstrates a swing back and forth between the one and the many. Twin tyrannies of totalitarianism and anarchism. Which is ultimate? (the institution or the members? The state or the citizens, the church or the members, the marriage or the husband and wife? When the one and the many are both ultimate, both equal, trinitarianism applied to the problem of the one and the many you see the brightest lights of liberty, God is most honored as the sovereign, and rulers most kiss the son. Things appear bad, as today we see a swing toward totalitarianism, and the anarchists are tugging the other way; however, as a wise man said, His-story teaches us to hope. In Europe several hundred years ago, Islam was close to conquering all of Christendom, divine right kings and ecclesiastical rulers claimed the oneness, totalitarianism was ultimate, and people were running naked around the streets of cities claiming they were a law unto themselves; yet, it pleased God to raise up a humble Augustinian monk, Martin Luther, to rediscover, what was on the shelf the whole time, the lost doctrine of the Sufficiency of Scripture which teaches us: The Bible is absolutely authoritative to everything to which it speaks, and it speaks to absolutely everything. That was great grace. Peace.
Lucian Rudd
July 30, 2016 at 5:07 pmSometimes we Bible “specialists” go a way too far with our judgments … and these comments are full of such. Mostly, Donald Trump is being judged as not righteous and not Godly enough to be in such an office in our wonderfully Christian nation. (That’s the way we talk about it during the week .. then tell the worshippers on Sunday morning how sinful everyone is) We talk about it from one side .. leaving another side almost totally unmentioned. Open us and listen to some of the things some other folks are saying about Mr. Trump … how he has helped some folks of all stripes who were in special need, how he has raised his children. Be sure you get enough examples on this side of the equation. Wake up to the realities of this circumstance. And always keep in mind, we are voting on a political office … not a pastor-in-chief. I have been through a lot of theology in my 62 years in the ministry … Turned 87 this year. Just retired in May (for the second time) and must remind you that we operate on numbers, calendars, power structures and all of the elements that make up the social and political makeup of our world. It is our challenge as ministers to proclaim to the world the message of the Lord God of all, seek to lead all and not just set ourselves us as the judges of one season that is just a flash in the pan of eternity.
Brad Bates
July 31, 2016 at 4:12 amRomans 13 tells us that government officials are ministers of God. The Greek word is Daikonos there in Romans, the same word used for deacon in 1 Timothy 3. If they are indeed servants/ministers/deacons, then yes – we are electing a pastor – not in the sense of preaching but in the sense of serving like the deacon. And thus, they should absolutely be held to the same standard. Exodus 18:21 gives the very basic requirement of a civil servant.
And is it so wrong to look at the fruit of a man who seeks the highest office in our nation and make a judgment based on that? Didn’t Jesus actually command that in John 7:24??
Dorothy Glover
July 30, 2016 at 6:42 pmThank you for this explanation, Pastor. I appreciate your leadership. I’m disappointed to learn that some whose leadership I’ve respected I can no longer trust. I’m amazed that anyone with any Biblical knowledge can support either Trump or Hillary. The Clintons are Ahab and Jezebel. Trump is Solomon in his decline, or Saul from whom God ripped the kingdom. Thank God my hope is in Him. Otherwise the future is bleak indeed.
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 2:55 amThanks for stopping by Dot.
Jennie Cook Padgett
July 30, 2016 at 7:13 pmIf Christians stay home and do not vote, I do believe that will be a vote for Hillary. The Supreme Court Justices that will be nominated within the next four years is crucial to our liberties. Trump has organized a group of Christian leaders who will support him by advising him and with their vote. Hillary has revealed her hand so vividly, likewise, so has Trump, saying he will draw on a wealth of experience from seasoned, conservative advisers/politicians/military generals. He can be reasoned with. Hillary made statements at her convention that Christians need to change some of their basic biblical truths. I believe your relentless hammering, I.e., #lesseroftwoevils does not serve a cause, but prayer for the next 100 days would be far better advice from a theologian like you, who I have greatly admired in the past. I can ser over a period of time, your various comments have been confusing and attempt to impart shades of guilt on others opinions comments. I shared a quote by C.S. Lewis from “Mere Christianity”. I hope you will look at mt FB page and read it. This entire crisis situation is for the most part, summed up in C.S. Lewis’ quote. Jennie
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:04 amJennie, I appreciate you stopping by. I have never advocated or remotely suggested that Christians don’t vote. There are 3rd party options (not Libertarian, but Constitution Party and America’s Party). There are write-in options as well. The fact is to support DT will forever mute the Church’s ability to have a character discussion when it comes to elections. We will have lost any and all moral authority.
Trump supporters are evaluating him on the basis of their projected hope in his promises. #nolesseroftwoevils movement is evaluating him based on his fruit and track record.
My “relentless hammering” is provoking people to think as to whether they follow a biblical template of obedience, or a pragmatic template of fear.
I hate that it has alienated friends and that has never been my heart…but passion and perspective is a two-way street and as passionate as DT supporters are with regards to their candidate, they should expect no less from those of us who are concerned.
If there is any guilt being placed on other’s opinions I think it should be evaluated as whether or not that may be the subtle conviction of whether this is the right direction to go or not. I hope you take the time to read other articles on this page so you can see the fullness of my perspective.
I appreciate you stopping by and trust you and your family are well!
Jennie Cook Padgett
July 31, 2016 at 4:17 amThank you for your reply. I am your friend and a great admirer of your knowledge and ability to compose with strength. I want to quote that excerpt by C. S. Lewis from his book, “Mere Christianity”. “I feel a strong desire to tell you…and I expect you feel a strong desire to tell me…which of these two errors is the worse. That is the devil getting at us. He always sends errors into the world in pairs…pairs of opposites. And he always encourages us to spend a lot of time thinking about which is the worse. You see why, of course? He relies on your extra dislike of the one error to draw you gradually into the opposite one. But do not let us be fooled. We have to keep our eyes on the goal and go straight through between both errors. We have no other concern than that with either of them.”
Never ever would I have believed that I would be voting for D. Trump. But that is my plan. The above quite settled it for me. Neither candidate would be my choice. But like many others, I have to consider the statements from both candidates intensions. D.T. did win the primary over 17 other candidates. I know Yeshua has the outcome. I believe from Ezekiel, “What happens on Earth is a direct outcome of the events going on in Heaven.”
Laurisa Condray
August 1, 2016 at 1:52 am“He relies on your extra dislike of one error (i.e. Hillary) to draw you gradually into the opposite one (i.e. Trump).” How then does that quote convince you to vote for Trump? I would think that it would warn you against it.
Richard Foy
July 31, 2016 at 7:39 pmI agree with you completely, Jennie! The appointment of future supreme court justices will shape the future of country for decades to come. We have to not only think of ourselves, but of our children and their children as well!! It is not a time for third party voting…that would be just a senseless “feel good” act. Our priest has vehemently stated that “Hillary CANNOT be elected!”
Deborah Sealey
July 30, 2016 at 7:14 pmDid King Cyrus “fit” either?? Deborah, of the bible, cannot in any way be compared to Hilary Clinton. I agree totally with Dr Grudem. I agree with Mr Holmes earlier, historically, a third party write in vote is a wasted vote. Look at the backgrounds & histories of the candidates that most closely align with Christian beliefs. Christians can’t even come together, and neither party is in agreement on these candidates. Clinton has a proven track record over many years. It’s not one I wish to continue in either. Trump is surrounding himself with people to help him that have great backgrounds. Can you say that for Clinton? I have way more reasons to vote for Trump than Clinton. She’s proven she’s NOT a great leader.
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:05 amThe key to voting is not what seems appropriate to “reason”, but rather has God laid out a template for choosing leaders? I believe He has. I invite you to read the other articles on this website.
Marilyn Starnes
July 30, 2016 at 8:33 pmIf I don’t vote for Trump, the only option left is Hillary Clinton and I CANNOT IN GOOD CONSCIOUS vote for her because of the Abortion issue and the Supreme Court issue. To not vote, or to waste a vote on a 3rd party candidate is not acceptable, so what would you suggest we as Christians do?
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:07 amObey God by empowering qualified leaders according to the Scripture and then rest in God’s sovereignty.
Be careful in your zeal to “save” America that you are not impeding another plan God may have. My job is not to help God, but obey Him.
Michelle Stoner
August 1, 2016 at 2:25 pm“My job is not to help God, but obey Him.” Yes! Thank you so much for this article that so well reflects my heart.
Ken wolcott
August 1, 2016 at 4:55 pmI have trouble understanding what the command is here. In the case of Moses, here was a leader commanded by God to choose judges to help him do his job, much as a President would choose Supreme Court leaders or Cabinet members. Is there an example in Scripture of God commanding citizens how to vote for an executive leader? I’m not disagreeing with your principle but perhaps with your dogmatic insistence on any clear command that would force us to that principle.
Darryl Johnson
July 30, 2016 at 11:10 pmI have been less than impressed with Trump, and even disgusted with things he’s said and done. The reality we face is that either Trump or Clinton will be elected. We have probably 3-4 Supreme Court justices who will be appointed in the next 4-8 years. Who knows how many District and Circuit judges might be appointed. I’ve been allied with a group of attorneys for years who fight to protect Christians and we face anti-Christian judges and justices far too often. These aren’t just un-Christian-they are anti-Christian. Clinton has already made pro-abortion a litmus test. Keeping all that in mind, what alternative do we have to vote as a Christian and have ANY hope of getting judges and justices appointed who will at least give Christians a chance? I would happily vote for someone other than Trump if I can be convinced they would appoint “just” justices and have a real chance of being elected.
Brad Bates
July 31, 2016 at 4:13 amRepublicans can’t be trusted to put in good justices. It’s been 43 years since Roe V Wade and abortion at a federal level hasn’t budged. And it didn’t matter the judges or which party was in control of congress.
What makes you think under Trump this would change one iota?
Darryl Johnson
July 31, 2016 at 11:08 amWe had Justices Scalia, Alito, and Thomas appointed since Roe v Wade was decided. They have been powerful defenders of religious liberties. Other Republican appointments have been disappointing – Kennedy and Roberts come to mind. But, I can’t think of a single justice appointed by a Democrat who has been reliably on the side of traditional conservative values. Would Trump do better? That could depend on who controls the Senate, but what I’ve heard is that he put out an encouraging list of potential nominees. Would Clinton do better? Not a chance. Would voting for a 3rd party or write-in candidate help in our quest for conservative federal judges and justices? Not a chance. I’m still waiting for someone to offer a better alternative that realistically puts us in a stronger position to make solid federal appointments to the bench. It’s easy to say, “Don’t vote for Trump because of these flaws.” It’s quite another thing to say, “Vote for Candidate X because he stands for what I believe in, and he can win the election.” Trust me, I want someone better than Trump in the WH, but I don’t see a better alternative who can win. Is it morally correct to vote for someone who can’t win, with the result being the election of a liberal who is hell-bent on taking away our ability to live according to our morals? Hillary has several litmus tests, among them being pro-abortion, and another being pro-homosexual. She’s an opponent of 2nd Amendment rights. Choosing to vote for a 3rd party makes her election more likely. I can’t go down that road.
Nancy Stewart
August 1, 2016 at 7:24 pmI have to agree, Darryl. I have been deeply disappointed at the two major candidates we essentially have to choose from. But I cannot point my nose heavenward and vote for someone I know has no chance of winning when I know that that will put in power someone who has set her face against the standards we live by and I have the option to vote for someone who says he will uphold those standards. I know he is iffy, but with him, we at least have a chance of holding to our standards. I had prayed and prayed for a better choice, and God chose to say no, these two are what you have. So then I began praying for wisdom on what to do on Nov. 8. I will vote, no question about that, but should I leave the President line blank, or vote for Trump? I asked the Lord to guide me and then give me peace about the matter. I have not yet decided, there are still 3 months for God to do something surprising! I probably won’t decide until the last minute, but since I started praying this way I have started feeling peace about one particular choice that I did not have before. I hope all of you reading are also praying and asking God–not to rubber stamp your own idea, but to show you His will in the matter, with an open heart to perhaps have to change your mind if He so leads.
And people, please do not say things that dehumanize either candidate, no matter how awful you think they are. Hilary Clinton may have strong opinions that cause God’s people to cringe, but that doesn’t make her a devil, a dog, or anything else less than human. Call her wrong, say her choices are evil, but don’t forget that she still bears the image of God. Trump, too, has an offensive ego and mouth, and probably doesn’t humble himself daily in prayer, etc. but that doesn’t make him anything less than human either. Being wrong does not diminish anyone’s membership in the human race!
Darrin Cline
August 5, 2016 at 3:09 amThe Supreme Court would not be considered nearly as important an issue if we understood what the Constitution says about it, not what we have been told it says. The Supreme Court was created to offer hopefully well-informed opinions that the Legislature could choose to act upon or not. In Article VI, it states that acts of Congress, treaties, and this Constitution shall be the Supreme Law of the Land. Not Supreme Court decisions. The only reason Roe v. Wade or Obergefell or Citizens United, etc. have any authority is that we give them authority. These are NOT the LAW of the land until an Act of Congress confirms them (which has not happened in these cases). We have collectively allowed our ignorance of this to accept implementation of governmental outcomes that did not have to be. In addition, the Congress has the enumerated power to defund enfircement of ANY decision of the Court or any Federal court it should choose. This did actually happen at times much earlier in our history. If we understood this, perhaps we would recognize our choice of elected representatives is at least as important as the Executive.
I believe the issue of the Court is important, but I think the larger issue is what is our hope truly in? Government (man)? Or God? There is more than one example in the Scriptures of when the people put their hopes in a human “Messiah,” such as Saul. I have really struggled with what is happening this election, but looking back, maybe I should have been struggling as much (not that I didn’t at all) in previous elections. Perhaps God is trying to make it so blatant to allow His people a clear choice of where they will place their trust, in God or man. Perhaps the candidates that have arisen are indicative of the increasing implementation of His judgment upon us. Samuel Whitefield (of the International House of Prayer) has just posted an excellent article regarding our choices this year.
For far too long, we have allowed the Republican Party (I have been an active life-long member) to use us and distract us; we have overlooked serious flaws in our sometimes blind allegiance. We need to be speaking righteousness into all parties, both those we support and oppose. Though I generally disagree with their solutions, the Democratic Party has long spoken to issues such as poverty and justice for example, that Christians should be at the forefront of, but we have tolerated virtual silence from our candidates. It is as Christians have overwhelmingly identified with the GOP that the Democrats have been left to embrace more and more things that are anathema to us. Over many decades, Christians have retreated from academia, the arts, and yes, the Democratic Party. We are reaping the results.
Joshua
July 30, 2016 at 11:35 pmWhat choice do we make when both do not fulfill God’s standard for leadershi?
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:07 am3rd Party or write-in
Angie Chevallier
July 30, 2016 at 11:38 pmWe haven’t had a Bible believing Christian run on the Republican ticket in many years. As someone who believes that no other rights matter without the right to life given by God, I will vote for Mr. Trump, trusting that he will do as he said, and appoint pro life judges to the court. The slaughter of innocent children, created in the image of God, goes on unabated every single day in this country. The lives lost are staggering and millions and millions more will be lost, no doubt, under another Clinton presidency. Sadly, most Christians merely give lip service to being pro-life and nothing more. A change in the Supreme court could allow a reversal of this tragedy if a challenge came before it. Every child that dies in this holocaust is unique and unrepeatable; at least with Mr. Trump they may have a chance. I once heard a pro life pastor say that abortion in this country will end when the church of Jesus Christ makes up her mind that it will end. I agree.
God bless you!
Brad Bates
July 31, 2016 at 4:15 amDo we have a chance? It’s been 43 years since abortion was legalized and at a federal level it hasn’t mattered one bit of the president and congress and SCOTUS judges were conservative or liberal.
What makes you so sure under Trump this would change?
Corey Drotzur
July 31, 2016 at 1:29 amThank you for your insight. Of consideration is that a “third party” is the Libertarian or Green Party. Neither of those candidates are worthy, so that leaves a write in.
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:08 amConstitution Party or America’s Party have great platforms and candidates as well.
FW
August 2, 2016 at 5:55 amUnfortunately, neither the Constitution Party or America’s Party have no chance to win a general election for president. It would take more than the evangelical vote to win a general election the way things stand with the electoral college. They will not be invited to any debates so they would not have the opportunity to get their message out to the rest of the voting population.
In order to ever have the opportunity for those two parties to be viable they have to start at the local and state level and build a coalition that way. If they do that maybe in 20 years there would be a chance for them to get traction on the national stage i.e. Congress and Senate.
Debbie Whitley
July 31, 2016 at 1:43 amAre you sure you know what God’s idea of a leader is? I thought that Scripture (Ex.18:21 referred to judges, but I am no theologian.
I am not an avid Trump supporter but I do distinctly remember him apologizing for saying he didn’t need to confess his sins.
Also, who is this 3rd party that God may want us to vote for? Esiegesis anyone? The words “wolf in sheep’s clothing” keep coming to me for some reason.
Brad Bates
July 31, 2016 at 4:18 amJudges are civil government leaders are they not? They make the 3rd branch of our government.
Even so there are passages like in Romans 13 calling civil leaders ministers (Greek = Daikonos – same word found in 1 Timothy 3 describing deacons). So Exodus 18:21 is the bare minimum requirement for our civil leaders.
As far as 3rd party – check out Dr Bairds several comments above as he pointed to 2 separate parties.
Matt Malone
July 31, 2016 at 2:11 amI read the whole article and it’s a lot to address, but I’ll attempt imperfectly to hone on one of your statements: “I can accept God’s providence in allowing an Ahab or Jezebel to rule, but am I expected to empower either one to that position?” I would join you rhetorically in answering with a resounding, “No!” And then I would ask you, “So why, by refusing to vote for Trump, would you want to empower the far, far, far worse candidacy of Hillary Clinton who also, by the way, claims to be a Christian?” What I’m saying is this: As American citizens we cannot NOT avoid empowering SOMEONE. We are slaves to this reality. Whether by action or inaction, we DO empower someone. (i.e., You will most definitely empower Jezebel/Clinton if you continue on your present course of inaction.) Some pagans (like Artexerxes, Cyrus, Darius, Trump, etc) are far, far better than other pagans (Haman, Antiochus Epiphanes, Clinton, etc). I would suggest that to get the most bang for your intellectual buck that you write 10 articles discouraging Christians (and non-Christians) from voting for Clinton to every one you write discouraging voting for Trump. Many, many Christians do indeed at this point intend to vote for Clinton. If you’re not going to vote for Trump, please at least help stop them from voting for Christianity-claiming-Clinton!
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:14 amThere is no inaction on my part. The time has come for Christians to recognize how they have been used by the GOP to further an agenda that is not God honoring.
It was Trump who allowed pagans to pray at his convention,
It was Trump who allowed an open homosexual address the convention and receive an ovation as he said he was proud to be a homosexual.
It was Trump who said not ONE word about life. (And BTW, I have spent years on the street and in legislatures contending for the pre-born)
It is time Christians quit settling for people who are simply driving this bus called America off a cliff at different speeds and actually change the direction. Politics will respond if we quit empowering their foolishness and rebellion.
My voice and others are going to do our best to exhort God’s people to obey the clear template in Scripture concerning the choosing of civil leadership. Obedience is quite simple. Disobedience is always complicated.
Jide Lawal
August 1, 2016 at 8:23 amInterestingly, it was Conservative judges, not Liberal ones who voted for abortion during Roe vs Wade…
https://vox-nova.com/2008/05/21/are-liberal-judges-to-blame-for-roe-v-wade/
Matt Malone
August 1, 2016 at 10:15 amWhat about his promised Supreme Court appointees? He intends to appoint Scalia/Thomas-type judges. If so, they would most definitely send the abortion issues to the national and state legislatures who very often vote for strong abortion restrictions. If they become a large enough majority (which is highly likely w/in the next 4 years with the aging justices), they may even overturn Roe-v-Wade. Is Trump lying about these proposed appointees? Well, he’s just hired the committed evangelical Mike Pence as his VP — a man whom Trump plans to use full-time in the Capitol pressing the flesh for legislation. Why not vote for Trump?
Also, I would challenge you to write — as a counter-balance to this article — a clear, detailed, well-researched account on why Christians should not vote for Hillary Clinton. Many Christians do plan to vote for her, as I’m sure you know.
Glenda Haglund
July 31, 2016 at 2:46 amThank you for this dialogue. I have appreciated all thoughts. I understand that you can not endorse nor will you vote for Mr. Trump and you are encouraging evangelicals not to as well. If we should not vote for Mr. Trump, who should evangelicals vote for and why?
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:15 amI would consider the Constitution Party (Darrell Castle)
Check out their website and platform.
Joe Pa
July 31, 2016 at 2:56 amSince fearing God is a condition of Exodus 18:21, would you say that an individual should never vote for a non-Christian for office. For example, did you choose not to vote for Romney since he is a Mormon who does not fear the one true God?
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:23 amI think a distinction can be made at times between a “God-fearing” person and a true evangelical Christian. Although those judgments are probably reserved for the Lord and we are simply to evaluate the fruit.
Unfortunately, I did vote for Romney and regretted it. At that time I advocated for his election under some of the same arguments that are being used for Trump. The election previous to that (McCain) I voted for Chuck Baldwin (Constitutional Party). So I plead guilty to some inconsistency previously. That being said, I am done with the corruption, pandering, and hypocrisy of both parties…especially this year.
The GOP has ostensibly capitulated on traditional marriage.
The GOP has invited pagans to pray at their convention.
The GOP has allowed an open homosexual to advocate for open bathrooms and state he is proud of his homosexuality and they give him a standing ovation.
Not one word about being pro-life was spoken by the candidate himself. This whole convention was approved by him.
Do we really think we can say God bless that mess and then empower it by saying smells less than the other guys and that will fly with God?
I fear God more than that.
Joe Pa
July 31, 2016 at 4:27 amI regret voting for Romney as you do. I am also currently a NeverTrump advocate for very similar reasons as you are. I would also add that I am not 100% sure that Trump is that much better for the country or world than Hillary. While Grudem makes many good points, I am fearful of having a man who feels insulted by a female Fox journalist and feels the needs to defend the size of his penis due to the size of his hands, having any control over nuclear arms or negotiating on our behalf with other countries. I think that the willingness of evangelical Christians to compromise has led to the types of candidates we are getting. Gary Hart lost the nomination due to an affair. Both the Democrats and Republicans had known adulterers speaking at their conventions (Bill Clinton and Trump) and no one seemed to care.
Craig Rogers
July 31, 2016 at 3:37 amYou’re article only showed me why Christian’s are treated so poorly today! You sir, are the problem. You’re false humility is obvious, and your self-righteousness pathetic. Open you’re eyes. What and whom did Jesus put in charge of the early church? Peter denied Christ and Paul was actively killing Christians. Get a clue!
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:45 amI am always amazed at how people who have no substance to their argument instantly devolve into epithets and condescension.
Donald Trump ran a convention last week that:
1. Had false religions and pagans praying.
2. Had an open homosexual advocate for transgendered bathrooms and state he was proud to be a homosexual to a standing ovation of the RNC.
3. DT said not one word concerning the preborn and the plight of abortion.
4. He has prospered on the back of the poor (casinos) and undermined the family (strip clubs)
You can read the Grudem article and see the resume of concerns.
It is not I who is clueless.
Peter and Paul had years of discipling before they were empowered to leadership. Donald needs the same thing.
Willa Kerby
July 31, 2016 at 3:54 amMarvelously written. Thank you. Just thank you.
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 4:15 amThanks for stopping by…
Steven Slaughter
July 31, 2016 at 5:20 amKevin, thank you for this retort and challenge. I read Grudem’s piece yesterday and was dismayed for several of the same reasons you articulate. Like many, I agree with Grudem that SC justice appointments are a big deal, one that weighs heavy on my heart. But I had a number of other issues with Grudem’s case that you, nor any other commenters here, has brought up yet. This is my first time reading your blog (a friend linked it on FB) and by the comments, I take it that your readership, and perhaps you, are very conservative politically. I grew up in an extremely politically conservative, Christian home and currently serve overseas as a missionary teacher. Over the years, I have increasingly felt like a man without a political home. Though not a Catholic, I would probably most closely align myself with a ‘Catholic Church Party,’ if such a thing existed — culturally tipping conservative, economically leaning progressive. I realize this may disqualify me from those who equate Christianity with far-right Republicanism, but this is where a I see the concerns of Jesus landing, so I have no choice but to live in this no-man’s land. 🙂
One of my biggest problems with Grudem’s piece is that the whole thing was couched under the umbrella of theology. This made sense, to a degree, when addressing the SC issue. (Though, to be fair, the right-leaning SC has done its share of legislating from the bench, many would argue, to destructive ends — declaring corporations persons in the Citizen’s United decision, for example, which has allowed the powerful and wealthy to exert the sort of money and influence that has helped us reach this unhealthy political moment.) But Grudem didn’t stick to theological issues. He went to all manner of conservative hot button issues not supported by Christian theology, but really only by political philosophy. One example was his anti-Union support of charter schools. Coming from Chicago, I have seen the corruption, waste, and inefficacy of these for-profit gambits, and research shows no gains educationally. He also goes after Obamacare, assuring us that market-driven systems will drive down costs. Teaching at an international Christian school has put me into contact from people all over the world. Every time I get the chance, I ask my Christian brothers and sisters from other countries about their experiences with their country’s (usually single-payer) universal healthcare system. And do you know what they say almost without exception?…(despite the apocryphal horror stories that are always bandied about on conservative media): it has worked really well for them and they would not want a different system. Rankings show the US to have the most expensive system, while being one of the worst in terms of actual care. Further, my friends from Germany and Canada and the U.K. can make very persuasive cases that their system reflects the values of the compassion of Christ more than the for-profit insurance systems. (Let’s be honest: how many of us have experienced or witnessed insurance companies doing al they can to deny services when we who have paid into their system for decades so desperately need them?)
My intention here is not to spark much larger debates. (I tend to ramble.) Rather, I would only suggest that many, many conservative Christians have come to associate most of the features of conservative politics (free market ecoonomic theory, hyper-individualism, American exceptionalism, military interventionism, etc) with Christian faith. I am not telling anyone they shouldn’t hold any of these views — though I believe many of them are antithetical to the messages of Jesus. I would only challenge Grudem and others to reflect and ask themselves — which of my positions are truly biblically grounded and which are political theory? There is nothing wrong with believing that a certain political position is preferable to another, but not every position is a slam dunk ‘Christian’ position. One can hold to a range of taxation models and still be a Bible-believing Christian. Yet I get the sense that many people do not believe this, and this is a problem. To combine far-right political theory in the same piece as moral issues without differentiation, as he has, Grudem implies that all of it falls under the banner of Christian ethics, and many Christians around the world would reject this.
Brian Gray
July 31, 2016 at 6:01 amThe world doesn’t always skew conveniently biblical, sometimes, you just have to compare the two choices, and the answer is obvious . I am Not the Christian to speak for any other Christian, but the choice is obvious for me
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:23 pmI refuse to accept the false paradigm of only two choices.
That mentality would have ruled out Abrham Lincoln as he was a 3rd party candidate.
Denise
July 31, 2016 at 11:20 amConscience is our most sacred property, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for so clearly articulating your own conscience on the matter. I am as conservative as a bible believer can get, and am still called a liberal by others for even suggesting I might not vote for Trump.
William Horosz
July 31, 2016 at 1:03 pmI can quote scripture to support my points as well as all of you both pro and con. Let’s call this article for what it is. It is Dr. Baird advocating voting for a third party candidate.
To do so is almost literally handing over the election to Hillary Clinton.
Dr. Grudem makes the point that the next President will be appointing more than one justice to the SCOTUS. You can be assured that if its Hillary Clinton we will see the very foundation – the Constitution of The United States – ripped from us. The freedoms we hold so near and dear will be a distant memory.
Donald J. Trump has many flaws. He has made a lot of mistakes. But he has surrounded himself with the best and brightest and will continue to do so when elected. He has had pastors pray over him on numerous occassions. He has no need to do this but is doing this for he hates what is going on in this country and wants to change it.
A wise person once said that “everything passes through the hands of God”. I agree. It is no accident or coincidence that we see Donald Trump versus Hillary Clinton. Truly a choice of good versus evil.
Everyone would love another Ronald Reagan including evangelical conservative Christians. Drink your coffee and wake up. That’s not going to happen now. But what is going to happen is that someone had the wherewithal to say enough is enough and put his life aside to run for President.
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 3:21 pmAgain, you are casting your confidence and projecting your hopes on the promises made by Donald Trump which have no basis in track record. I understand that and to an extent understand why people so desperately want to believe that.
My point is that confidence in man is sinking sand. I would rather obey God, follow His template, and rest in His sovereign plan. I can stand confidently at that place.
As for 3rd party…this election cycle warrants it or all we do is cede our moral authority as the Church. From this point forward, as the Church supports DT, we can no longer make the case for a moral cause. There were several men running for president that I could have supported but the GOP made its decision…
Until it feels the pain of more losses, I seriously doubt it will take our concerns seriously.
It is obviously so as they had pagan prayers at the RNC, allowed an open homosexual to advocate for open bathrooms and give him a standing ovation as he stated his pride in his behavior, and the candidate himself said not ONE word about the preborn. First time in years…
You are rolling the dice with DT…
And the odds are not good.
Eric Chu
August 2, 2016 at 5:51 pmGood versus evil? We only see what we want to see, don’t we?
Incredible how fiercely we are willing to fight for Christianity. Too bad it’s not the same thing as trusting in Jesus. Faithful muslims around the world fight for a more conservative culture in their own countries. Are they doing God’s work as well? What’s the difference between Christian culture warriors and Muslim culture warriors?
Lori Hack
July 31, 2016 at 2:35 pmMy thought is that if Wayne is worried about the Supreme Court why hasn’t he joined the movement for Article V – Convention of States.
Barry Pierce
July 31, 2016 at 7:09 pmDr. Baird, Thank you very much for expressing so well what I had been sensing about Donald Trump, but struggled to articulate. Well done.
Thanks too to the editorial staff at WORLD MAGAZINE who months ago raised similar issues and helped lay a foundation upon which you have built with wisdom, discernment, and respect.
“….it is required of stewards that they be found faithful” (1 Cor. 4:2).
I thank God for you and them and your faithfulness.
Re: Dr. Grudem: “There but for the grace of God go I.”
Taylor Kendrick
July 31, 2016 at 8:35 pmI am not a Trump supporter, but I do agree with Dr. Grudem’s perspective. I am still grappling with how to resolve my conflict with this presidential election. I believe not voting for Trump or voting third party is a vote for Hillary which will cause tremendous harm to this nation. Can a person vote the lesser of two evils and still hold their moral convictions? I believe so if it is done in faith, faith in God and not in government. If we truly seek God and vote accordingly in faith, then it is not sin. For some, voting for Trump will be sin. For others, it won’t be. For me, I’m not sure yet. I’m still praying.
One final short note about leader qualifications. Several time in this article and the subsequent discussions about the article conversations have emerged about people being qualified or disqualified for leadership. These conversations have disturbed me. I don’t disagree that we need to have qualifications which represents what a good leader is, but I’m not too sure I agree that we are ultimately the ones to judge who fits the bill. Think about this Biblically for a moment. Is an adulterer qualified? What about a murderer, or an apostate? If so then David, Paul, and Peter were all disqualified as leaders of a nation and the early church. Some might say, “But wait, these men repented.” Yes, I agree. But, did they seek the Lord for forgiveness? No, God sought them. God had plans for them, not the other way around. God is the only one fit to judge a man or woman’s heart and fitness to serve as a leader. God can and does use the most unlikely people. Does this mean we just step aside and let anyone through? No! But, through prayer, faith, and meditation, we must seek God and then act in faith.
I appreciate your thoughtful response to Dr. Grudem. Thank you. You have given me much more to think about. But please remember in regard to this current presidential election, God has provided us with only two possible candidates who can the theoretically be elected president. Yes, I know there are many crazy plans out there to attempt to thwart both Clinton and Trump from obtaining the White House, but reality dictates that to be unlikely. This being true, I believe as believers we must allow our vote to be cast between the two mostly candidates. If by November there because a third or forth option available, then we can reevaluate our vote. But until then, we must consider the two real candidates before us.
Kevin Baird
July 31, 2016 at 10:51 pmThanks Taylor for your good-spirited input…
I might only say that the qualifications that are set are not from me, but the Lord. Of course, every Christian has been forgiven for some sin or sins to be “saved”. The issue here is no judgmentalism, but rather Trump has demonstrated the “fruits” of repentance and the track record of a faithful life for any significant time besides an election cycle.
We have a standard for ministerial conduct and maturity found in I Timothy 3 and Titus 1. These were amplified from Exodus 18:21 and Deuteronomy 1:13-15.
These are not unattainable standards, but rather minimum requirements to lead people. Leaders are role models and examples for the church and/or nation.
I have an upcoming blog on this topic so check back.
Brian Cox
July 31, 2016 at 9:21 pmAnother good perspective can be found here:. https://shar.es/1ZGTLv “A Good Man Justifies a Wicked Deed: Grudem on Trump”
Keith Brenton
July 31, 2016 at 9:25 pmThe great fallacy in Dr. Grudem’s logic, to me, is that “less evil” is not equal to “morally good.”
Rich Burns
July 31, 2016 at 11:13 pmI really appreciate this article and am relieved to see an intelligent Christian response to Trump supporters. One criticism – please do not use the term schizophrenia when identifying inconsistencies. This is a serious mental health condition which is widely misunderstood. It is not helpful to use the term with an implicit meaning that only serves to further confuse the term. Incorrectly using terms like “manic”, “OCD”, or “schizophrenic” in discussion hurts efforts to educate the general public about serious mental health issues.
Kevin Baird
August 1, 2016 at 1:03 amWill make sure any reference in the future is clearly understood. Thanks for stopping by.
Richard T
August 3, 2016 at 2:19 amI believe you were confusing schizophrenia with bi-polar – when you were referencing the flip-flopping.
Jeff Burrito
July 31, 2016 at 11:50 pmTalk about mental **********. A lot of fancy words to get to basic common sense. Bottom line, Trump is a ridiculous candidate. All this convoluted talk to dance around that very basic fact.
Kevin Baird
August 1, 2016 at 1:03 amGlad you stopped by Jeff. I moderated your comment because one word was a tad too colorful. Thanks for stopping by.
Annette Ryder
August 1, 2016 at 12:15 amThank you, Dr. Baird, for this brilliant article rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Love that two-edged sword! We must stand in His truth and not be double-minded. Your love comes thru. I’m privileged to post it on my FB page! My friends will love it. We sure find out who they are and where they are spiritually. The Church is growing. When I asked Holy Spirit about what all this ‘lesser of two evils’ doctrine in the church is about, the thought came to me, He revealed to me, that this compromise has been going on for a long time so He’s placed this choice in front of us of clear evil. He is separating us in these last days, and He is coming soon to Rapture those He finds faithful. Now that’s scary to me. I want my oil lamp to be full.
Rudy Griffin
August 1, 2016 at 12:42 amAs a Christian I wanted Ted Cruz. I have Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology and a couple other of his books. I consider Dr. Grudem one of the best theologians. Church doctrine is based on theology, if your theology is wrong then your doctrine will be in error as well. Politically, and in good conscience I pray and hope that Hillary will lose the election. Morally,I believe that Trump may turn this country around, maybe not as well as Ronald Reagan did. We have a choice to make, not voting is a bad decision. This leave Trump to make a change and undo Obama’s bad policies. Finally, the world events may be allowed to happen by God to bring about the end.
Kevin Baird
August 1, 2016 at 1:05 amThanks for commenting Rudy.
I do not advocate for not voting.
I agree that Dr. Grudem is indeed a gifted scholar for the church. That is why I was surprised by where he landed in his choice of candidates. Everyone has a choice to make. We shall soon see how it shakes.
David Connon
August 1, 2016 at 1:44 amI was astounded that Dr. Wayne Grudem endorsed Donald Trump for president. Thank you for writing a thoughtful, balanced response to Dr. Grudem’s ill-founded endorsement.
David Beiswenger
August 1, 2016 at 9:00 pmDavid,
“Ill-founded” is in the eye of the beholder here. There is no biblical mandate for Christians to support a leader who is not flawed or is not a sinner (as Dr. Bard seems to suggest). I don’t agree with Grudem on most of his theology, but I do agree with his basic premise for supporting Trump (or whomever you want to support in good conscience in a free republic). Dr. James Dobson also support Trump, that should also shock you. Do you want to judge him too?
God Bless
Richard Copeland
August 1, 2016 at 2:04 amWhile I agree with a lot of these points, this ONE SIMPLE FACT REMAINS: Hillary, a pathological liar, deceiver, scandalous, murdering, reprobate with only one accomplishment (staying out of prison) or Donald Trump who James Dobson says accepted Christ recently, and is a new Christian known for accomplishments and success, Will be the next President. Trump wants to bring prayer back to our schools, AND is against abortion. If you are a Christian, which one of these two do you want??!!
Richard Copeland
August 1, 2016 at 2:16 amI left out that Hillary says that those with “deep Religeous beliefs” have to change! She must be STOPPED!
Ken Peters
August 1, 2016 at 7:12 amI’m not sure how you can call yourself “Pro-life” and not do anything and everything to protect and change the Supreme Court.
Kevin Baird
August 2, 2016 at 12:13 amYours is perhaps the most offensive and ludicrous of any of these posts. However, you are right that I am not a part of the establishment pro-life movement, but prefer the philosophy and most of the strategies of the abolition movement.
I have preached and advocated in front of Death Mills for years. I have challenge legislators in the halls of congress for the lives of the preborn. I have watched GOP lawmakers undermine personhood legislation which would make real progress in stopping abortion, but instead they do pain-capable bills which get the kudos from the establishment, but open the door to perhaps greater problems.
4 out of the last 7 GOP SCOTUS nominations have done as much to harm the preborn as any democratic appointee. I “get” that Hillary loves the blood of the innocent, but don’t for an instant think that DT, who said not ONE WORD at the RNC concerning the abolition (or even regulation) of abortion is to be trusted on this front.
I am working for real change…not crumbs from the GOP which keeps the blood flowing.
J May
August 1, 2016 at 10:27 amSo, what do people think about Mike Pence? I believe he is a believer. As a believer, do you think he compromised himself when he accepted the invitation to be Trump’s running mate? Or do you believe it is OK for him to run with Trump and try to use his position and influence for good as well as to bring some balance to the ticket?
I don’t know if his choice of Pence was simply a political maneuver or whether he really respects Pence and his views, but Pence’s presence on the ticket makes it a whole lot easier for me personally to consider a vote for Trump. Kevin will probably disagree with that and that’s fine.
I honestly do not know who would make the best President, but I’m glad that God is ultimately in control. He may even allow the further deterioration of the country. Who knows? But at least we need to do our part and vote our conscience.
Kevin Baird
August 2, 2016 at 12:06 amI do not know the motivation behind the Pence nomination. I know many people in Indiana have instantly released him from the RFRA/SOGI debaucle in this state which ostensibly threw threw Christian business owners under the bus with regards to liberty of conscience.
I like Pence generally, but in the end from my observations on the ground…Pence will never have the ability to speak truth to power. He will cover and capitulate to Trump.
My two cents.
Randal T. Crudgington
August 1, 2016 at 12:07 pmIf I may, which Roman ruler was Paul referring to as a ‘deacon’ and how is Donald Trump worse than any of the options of first century Rome?
Your article takes a brief moment to offer respect for Dr. Grudem and then places arguments upon him which he did not make. For instance, he did not say his reading of OT circumstances was better than any other. He merely offered his understanding and application nothing at all like what you’ve implied.
I haven’t read your 3rd party justification but I’ve seen the results of just such a practice. H. Ross Perot anyone? The very reason we have Clonton in the first place is a 3rd party candidate which had no chance of becoming a president.
Some that I have seen here state that they will never read/trust Grudem again because of this petty disagreement. I find that very disappointing.
Bebeliz
August 1, 2016 at 12:21 pmGod will decide who the next president will be. As for we humans, “we the people” do not elect the president or vice president the Electoral College does and without God’s intervention Hillary will buy the Electoral votes.
Jim Lehe
August 1, 2016 at 3:05 pmMany of life’s ethical decisions are situational applied biblical principles. First, doing nothing in the face of evil is never a good choice when you have at least something at your disposal to do. I have no doubt that under Hillary that abortions will increase, the LGBT agenda will be greatly advanced, that families and communities in coal country will be devastated because of climate change politics, increase the chaos caused by illegal immigration, that terrorism will continue to expand and grow, and that ISIS will continue to slaughter more of our brothers and sisters in the Middle East because she will continue the Obama policies,. Romans 13:9, 10 tells us, “(for the whole Law) can be summed up in this one statement, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’. Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.” All the situations I listed above call for policies that will be in the best interest of those people. Donald Trump has laid out his plans to address ISIS and terrorism, the select conservative judges, to invigorate the coal industry, and to address immigration and border security concerns. Allowing Hillary to come into power by not voting or voting symbolically for a third party is a guarantee to do harm to my neighbors. Voting for Trump holds out promise for addressing many of these pressing issues that will literally cause the loss of lives and livelihoods. Go ahead and pontificate for your hyper-righteousness that achieves nothing but evil, but I choose to love my neighbor. And Jesus tells us in Matthew 25 that our actions that work toward the good and mercy of those around will be what distinguishes the sheep from the goats. Methinks you are a very impractical and unloving in your assessment.
Jim Lehe
August 1, 2016 at 3:10 pmAs for not voting or voting third party enabling a Hillary victory, that is easily illustrated. If no Republicans voted who would normally vote for the Republican candidate, then who wins.? That happens one vote at a time. I rest my case.
Randy Raymond
August 1, 2016 at 4:08 pmMy only comment is that someone will be president of the United States of America come 2017. If our intention is to defeat Ms. Clinton, then we need to rally behind the highest polling candidate that is in a position to defeat Ms. Clinton. Of course, if you believe that Ms. Clinton has already won and that no one can defeat her, then you are free to vote for anyone you please, justified on the basis that it makes no difference. All these dislikes of Mr. Trump may be justified. All I am seeing is that your dislikes of Mr. Trump are greater than you desire to defeat Ms. Clinton.
Lori Werner
August 1, 2016 at 5:37 pmAs Christians, there are so many ways to look at the unfortunate choices that we are offered in this election. A long, but very thought-provoking article, ” Four Issues to Consider Before You Vote Trump – What is Really at Stake” , http://samuelwhitefield.com/1811/four-issues-to-consider-before-you-vote-trump-what-is-really-at-stake offers some very good points to consider …
David Beiswenger
August 1, 2016 at 7:00 pmDear Dr. Baird,
David was, “a man after God’s own heart” and yet he lied, pretended to be crazy, committed adultery and murder, but was God’s anointed. Your use of Exodus 18:21 is out of context, and is admittedly the idea, but hardly applies to largely secular leaders. If your standard was applied, how many of the past Presidents of the United State–or leaders you voted for, if we knew their sorted and guarded stories, would be disqualified by your standards?
Scripture says that God institutes governments among men, but they are hardly a priesthood (which is also clear from scripture) with the same standards that Israel’s leaders were held to–the people of the Book. Your interpretation of the word “ministers” to mean some kind of spiritual office is flawed–forgive me. Some governments are beneficent some are less so, but there is no prescription or guarantee that they will all be, nor that all those that lead them will fall under the same standards as elders of the church.
I will vote my conscious for Trump and pray that should he wear the mantle of POTUS that God will be with him (as I believe that is where the power to rule comes from) and be confident in my conviction that the outcome of that vote will have the *effectual* result–derived from the wisdom God gave us–of moving us toward a more balanced SCOTUS and the protection of tiny lives. You may cling to your own sense of piety and vote for a less pragmatic outcome if you wish. I will not fault you for it. I would hope you would extent Dr. Grudem and I the same Christian charity, however.
God Bless.
Gary
August 1, 2016 at 8:23 pmI am sick to death of the allegation that any vote against Trump (i.e. a third party candidate) or a no vote at all position is in fact a vote for Hillary Clinton. This is accurate only in part if you live in one of the 9 or 10 battleground states. If you live in a state where the electoral college votes are already committed by history’s precedent (such as Oklahoma), your third party vote or non-vote will do nothing to impact the election. If the popular vote meant anything, Al Gore would be the 43rd president of the United States. If you live in a battleground state (such as Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, et al) then certainly your vote may be critical to seeing one candidate or the other win those electroal college votes but the other 40 states +/- are already decided. Oklahoma, where I live, has not voted for a Democratic candidate since Lyndon Johnson in 1964 and only then because he was a Texan and we vote with our neighbors across the Red River. Prior to that it was FDR. This state is the only state in the nation to have not had a single county carried by Barak Obama when he ran against John McCain. Even Arizona had some counties carried by Obama. So if I vote or don’t vote, it will make no difference to the outcome of my state’s pledged electoral delegates. So why not vote my conscience? I will be voting for the Libertarian candidate as a show of displeasure for the two party system in hopes that the other parties either wake up and get better candidates or that a third party rises from the ashes and gives another viable alternative. There is nothing wrong with not exercising your right to vote if doing so is a moral statement to not support someone you feel is unqualified or even dangerous. Either candidate. If i do not exercise my right to buy a gun under the 2nd ammendment, I am no less an American and not voting due to reprehensible candidates is not unAmerican either. Do the right thing, even when no one else is doing it.
David Beiswenger
August 1, 2016 at 8:55 pmGary,
I live in a swing state so, unlike you, my vote counts. I would challenge your premise, however, and I think if you consider that if everyone in your state followed your advice what would the outcome of *this* election be? The fact that certain states have “always” voted the same way in the past, is not a guarantee, in an election like this, which fits some of the conditions for the exceptions you site, that they will vote that way this time.
Some of us are counting on you being wrong. I hope you are, brother.
God Bless.
Charles M Boles
August 1, 2016 at 9:27 pmAs a lay person that has studied theology my entire life I am always surprised at how technical the highly educated make such simple ideas and decisions. I have heard so many times we are going to be punished for turning away from The Father as if the majority of Christian Americans have done so. Any man can be used by The Father at any time without such revered theologians understanding any of it. If you consider Trump to be a terrible man you may want to pull your heads out of your books and try living in the real world. We try the best we can but I find your conversations to be out of touch with the world we live in. No one knows what Jehovah has planned but given their past I would say Trump is an average man that can be made great but Hillary is a deceiver in every thing she has ever done. She is evil and you don’t need a doctorate to see that. Brother Boles, Theological Historian without the pretty paper and fancy letters
Kevin Baird
August 2, 2016 at 1:13 amYou are right that God can do whatever He wants and use whomever He chooses…
However, you surely don’t believe you can walk out of your house and do whatever you want and simply slap Romans 8:28 on the incident and call it just or right?
Yes…God is sovereign and will use ANYTHING. But that is not the open door for us to DO anything. The Lord may indeed use Mr. Trump. The truth is the Lord may use Hillary as well (probably both to judge this nation). However, that possibility, does not eject us from obedience in implementing God’s precepts in how we vote. We do not get to isolate or compartmentalize our obedience from politics because we like pragmatism and doing what we want under the guise of God’s sovereignty.
Drew Richard
August 1, 2016 at 9:44 pmThis sounds like it was written by a guy who, having a son or an ox that has fallen into a pit on a Sabbath day, will [actually] NOT immediately pull him out…You’ll then congratulate yourself on strict compliance with the law while your son/ox dies. Will God owe you an ox, then?
Kevin Baird
August 2, 2016 at 1:07 amDid you read another blog site and then comment here?
MK Christiansen
August 1, 2016 at 10:18 pmThank you very much for this useful and well-written response to Dr. Grudem. We needed to read this! I was also dismayed at Dr. Grudem’s support of Trump, and I appreciate you’re well-thought-out points here. Please know that there are many Christians who are in total agreement with you, who refuse to vote from fear, but instead vote in trust and good conscience, and trust God to keep it all in His hands.
Marty Schoenleber Jr.
August 1, 2016 at 11:04 pmThe problem with the third party candidates is the same this year. Though the other parties, Libertarians and Greens, seem like adults as opposed to the morally flawed and immature of the major parties, their positions are still filled with evil and unbiblical policies. I wonder if it might be wiser to start a movement to encourage evangelicals to write in the candidate they hope will run against whoever wins in 2016 for the 2020 election?
Kevin Baird
August 2, 2016 at 1:06 amThe Constitution Party and America’s Party offer viable options I think.
Matthew von Hobe
August 1, 2016 at 11:32 pm“Trump himself doesn’t believe he NEEDS to change, or repent for anything he’s done in the past. He said that himself. People who believe his con will live to regret it.”
While I believe that he did, in fact, subsequently apologize for saying he needed no repentance (did you deliberately omit this?) Saul of Tarsus also seemed clearly to hold no need to change or repent – we saw how that turned out. He himself wrote to the Hebrews, perhaps remembering that day near Damascus, “It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
It seems to some of us that his choice for running mate has the potential to bring some bright life-giving light to Trump.
And like Debbie Whitley, it strikes me that you took Exodus 18:21 out of context – I’d gently invite you to go back at least 7 or 8 verses.
At the end of the day, I suspect there are those of us who have a clear sense that the Lord intends to use Donald Trump and/or his administration to His ends. To what extent it certainly remains to be seen but an amble through I and II Kings provides ample examples of scenarios.
To wait for a perfect, or simply a better, fit for our human, limited, view of a righteous presidential candidate is, I think, to (try to) put God in a box.
And, finally sir, I think we’re exhorted to speak only those things helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. My sense is that this looks far more like expressing your positive opinions toward a given direction than any directly opposing a brother. Where’s the love and unity?
Kevin Baird
August 2, 2016 at 1:05 amThanks Matthew for commenting in a good-spirit.
To compare Trump to Saul of Tarsus is a stretch. Saul, once converted, spent several years in discipleship before being released to any leadership. If Trump is indeed converted, then at best he is a novice and should be discipled in this new faith before attempting to lead a nation as a “minister” (Romans 13:4,6) of God. He needs time to grow and not exasperate his already highly toxic worldview.
While it is true Israel had numerous kings with incredible frailties, these were foisted upon them through a monarchial succession, I have no argument that America has been and perhaps will forever be governed by incredibly, even egregiously flawed rulers. I can live in the knowledge that God raises up whom He chooses in Hid sovereignty. The question becomes for those of us living in a democratic republic, “Can we personally empower that person with our vote? Can we facilitate that person to rulership?”
Everyone wants to jump to the “hopeful” conclusion without wrestling with the process of how it gets there. Does the end truly justify the means?
And finally, Dr. Grudem (as well as myself) are public figures. If we put our opinion out to influence people, then we should be secure enough to take some heat of critique. My analysis was not done in hate nor division. It was done in a pursuit of truth.
Dr. Grudem does not get a “hands off” approach when the direction of a nation is at stake. I can love him as a brother in the Lord and still think he’s wrong (I.e. Paul and Barnabas).
Brady Dillon
August 2, 2016 at 2:41 amIn response to Baird’s comments about the “Baptism of Pragmatism” it seems that the premise is that Scripture dictates to us who to vote for rather that it being one of the many issues on which Christians are to use their own judgement. But “pragmatism” vs. “obedience to God’s Word” in this case is a false dichotomy. Fundamentalism is for, and ought to be saved for, spiritual matters. Politics is the art of the possible. It is pragmatic or it is nothing.
Brad Bates
August 3, 2016 at 12:32 amWhen Jesus was called “Lord of ALL” did that exlude politics?
Brady Dillon
August 4, 2016 at 3:27 am“My kingdom is not of this world”
Brad Bates
August 5, 2016 at 7:42 pmCorrect. But it extends into and through this world. After all He created it.
Tina Ballard
August 2, 2016 at 3:56 amThank you. This very eloquently put into words what I have been unable to do, but agree with wholeheartedly. I just simply cannot vote for this man. The bottom line is that I must vote my conscience and I believe this time around, that means third party and trusting God with the outcome, knowing I have done my part and trusting him to intervene according to His will. It grieves me to see so many Christians being, what I consider to be deceived, by this man due to anger, fear, a disgust with the establishment, etc. I understand that disgust. But, with God, there is always hope of a path we have not yet seen when we do what we know to be right. I respect those who feel they must vote for him because they feel it is right. I would ask for the same respect. I also believe Trump has NPD (google for details) which makes it impossible to believe a word he says. He will say anything to get elected including pandering to desperate Christians. Thanks again for taking the time to write this.
Angelia Dittmeier
August 2, 2016 at 4:23 amI was aligned with your position right up until the Democrats cheered at a woman’s testimony of the killing of her unborn child and made it part of their platform to rescind the Hyde Amendment. Can you tell me…if Hillary is elected, what you will advise Christians to do about being forced to pay for the continued massacre of babies? When the Supreme Court justices are stacked completely to the left, all restrictions on abortion are lifted, and the Hyde Amendment is repealed, what will we do? Will we render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and pay to extinguish lives? I’m truly asking with a sincere heart. Hillary’s allegiance to Cecile Richards is established fact. That being said, I feel a moral obligation to vote in a way meant to stop her.
Gayle Alleluia Herron
August 2, 2016 at 5:43 amThe remnant is getting smaller by the day. Why did God set before us two men to choose from: One a prideful, dishonest, slandering, cheating fool, and another who is an honest, principled, upright Born-Again Believer? We had a chance. It’s over. America chose wrong. Bad choices bring bad consequences and we will be judged.
Steve Chan
August 2, 2016 at 8:05 amDonald Trump may well be as distasteful as Hillary Clinton. In my opinion, both of them are unfit to be President of the United States. Not considering third party tickets at the moment, the other two individuals indirectly running for the presidency (as vice presidential candidates) are Clinton’s pick of Tim Kaine and Trump’s pick of Mike Pence. One of the most important qualifications for a person to successfully govern the Office of the President is having prior experience as chief executive of a governmental body. Only one person our of Clinton, Kaine, Trump and Pence has that prior experience — and it is Mike Pence, as Governor of Indiana.
Like so many other citizens attempting to apply a Biblical perspective to the 2016 presidential elections, I don’t want my vote to be based upon avoiding one evil just to embrace another evil. Instead, I want my vote to count in a positive way FOR a person who would be a good President. For that reason, I am inclined to vote for the ticket that has Mike Pence on it, regardless of whose name is at the top of that ticket. And I’ll leave the outcome to our sovereign God.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/democrats-mike-pence-convention-225897
Scott
August 2, 2016 at 8:34 amI am interested in knowing how much else of Exodus you believe in maintaining obedience to? How about Exodus 20:8 and keeping the Sabbath? What about Exodus 12 and keeping YHVHs appointed times? We know how Jesus lived, in obedience to Torah, yet too many hypocritically teach others to ignore it even though Jesus Himself said the Law (Torah) was NOT abolished. (Grace doesn’t replace or eliminate obedience, it enables us to keep the commandments applicable to each of us without burden. It was the “law of sin and death” that was put on the cross, not YHVH’s commandments.)
This convenient theology of applying portions of Torah when it suits you (like here, or perhaps tithing), and ignore it when it doesn’t agree with Roman-based western theology, highlights the hypocrisy of the “scribes and priests” (leaders) of so much of Christianity today (“brood of vipers” comes to mind)!
Back to the election, your suggestion here is political foolishness and will get Hillary elected to continue the same evil agenda as the current occupant of the White House. You say “the Constitution Party and Americas Party are viable options.” In what world? They won’t even be on the ballot in many states. They may be voting options, but they are not viable, electable options.
I am also curious to know how long and if you have consistently applied this Exodus standard in your votes cast over the years, or if it’s just a new discovery and practice now bc of Trump? Honestly now, God is watching, no parsing or justifications. Please identify whom you’ve voted for in the last several elections and help us to determine if they’ve all been this carefully and rigidly compared against this Biblical standard used by a single patriarch to choose versus millions of voters (without any such standards) from the limited viable candidates (currently, this means either the Dem or the Rep).
The difficulty in applying this standard in our current flawed two party system is Moses was in a position to apply this standard and the decision was made. In 2016, as in so many elections, we do not have such high standard of choices bc in our system, only the candidates from two parties have a realistic chance at becoming POTUS. It is a process of voting for candidates during the process who most closely represent this type of standard. Your first choice might be great but when he doesn’t win that stage, then the next closest must do, eventually leaving someone you hope will at least protect your own values even if he himself doesn’t live by them as well as you’d like! This is our current situation.
Trump may not live by this Exodus standard completely, but at least he is promoting policies which will let the rest of us do so. What you propose in applying it at this final stage in our election process, will not produce the same result as Moses’ choices, so there is clear logical fallacy in your argument. The best we can do and still perform our civic duty is to vote for the candidate closest to our standard between the two viable options (even three in a handful of elections, just not this one). The only reason not to do so is when neither of the two viable candidates represent this standard, or will permit the rest of us to do so via his/her policies.
In my view, this is a perfect example of one body part (of the body of Christ) trying to do the work of another (eyes make terrible feet and vice versa). Trump has made it clear he will protect (and restore in many areas) the practice of Biblical values and US sovereignty from an evil one world, globalist agenda that will strip us of our right to practice our Christian faith. You are doing hasatan’s work here pastor.
It’s my intent to be direct but not disrespectful as I’m sure you mean well, but you must think further on the consequences of what you are promoting as you clearly influence many people. I’m curious if you promoted Romney in 2012 or if were you writing similar articles, rejecting him for similar reasons you reject Trump now? After all, Romney is a cult member and globalist. In 2016, we have a candidate in Trump who, while not perfect and perhaps quite flawed, is at least promoting policies which will restore our freedoms, reverse the Islamic invasion, and prevent our current leaders’ globalist sellout (or at least slow it down, giving us time to spread the gospel).
Scott L.
August 2, 2016 at 8:41 amWon’t let me post my critical but respectful comment.
Glen Van Etten
August 2, 2016 at 1:45 pmOnly one short question: why is voting for Clinton morally better than voting for Trump?
Eric Chu
August 2, 2016 at 6:27 pmHi there Glen. Voting for Clinton is morally better than voting for Trump, ironically, because she makes no claim to godliness. The tragedy that has happened with the GOP in general, is that as long as certain pet issues are supported, then “I’m in, this is my team.” It’s become an us vs. them thing, and our party is the “good guys”, and we’re on “God’s side.” But, then, the behaviors and actions of “our team” are no less shameful, not any more righteous than anyone else. But we think we’re better, we think we’re more righteous. Trump is the pinnacle of this effect, where his behaviors are so egregious — name calling, labeling others, stoking fears and encouraging conspiracy theories, using silly wording to plant ideas about people while claiming not to say that very thing. Juvenile, and reprehensible. He’s friendly with white supremacy groups, vindictive, willing to bully and intimidate. And yet, he’s the “morally good” choice?
The fact that people think that, IS the tragedy. The reason why Clinton is a morally better choice is BECAUSE she hasn’t been deemed by fear filled believers as “God’s anointed one,” allowing all kinds of allowances for what is plainly sinful behavior.
In plain terms, the pharisees were the “moral anchors” of their society. And in their own eyes, they were more righteous than the sinner in society at large. Unfortunately, this had the slightly undesired effect of blinding them to their own badness. To the point that they were willing to co-conspire with the godless government in order to ensure the safety of their nation.
How do Christians look to society at large, by attaching ourselves to the Republican party? We look like hateful, self-righteous, narrow minded, unloving people, unwilling to dialog, unwilling to reach across and work together. And by and large, it’s true. Have we helped to show the world that Jesus is humble, approachable, and welcoming for any who would come to him?
Additionally, I believe that HRC is sincerely wanting to help the country progress and move forward. She too is a flawed candidate, but that’s simply what she is. She isn’t the next Moses or Elijah, as people continually hoped for from Bush, and now from Trump.
Dean G. Miller
August 2, 2016 at 3:36 pmThere was a time when we could sit serenely sequestered in the safety of our study and discuss the issues presented by Dr. Grudem and Dr. Baird. I wish that time had continued. But after 8 years of a radical leftist presidency, we are reaching a critical point. I would not declare, though I am tempted to, that the very fate of our nation is at stake, but surely it is an important turning point. Talking to welfare mothers who have lost their urge to work and are now tuning out babies to be aborted and sold for body parts, I wonder at the direction our nation is heading. (How big a step is it before welfare mothers are paid for their babies.) But abortion isn’t my only issue, though it is representative of a whole list of other symptoms. The problem with the presidency and the criteria we choose for voting for one candidate or another is that, whatever our ethical and religious concerns, that office is essentially a secular one. The issues this nation faces are therefore secular even though we may view them through ethical and religious lenses. For example the major concern of this country is economic. A $20T debt hangs over us with a GDP of only $16T, most of which are entitlements that should have never reached this level. Whatever the Government gives to us must be taken from us first with a huge penalty in that transfer. The federal budget alone is $3.8T, nearly a quarter of the GDP. Hillary Clinton is proposing a massive stimulus expenditure, dwarfing Obama’s $1T, which did not stimulate the economy, for the above reason. The choice facing our nation has a huge economic component, dwarfing most of the other issues, and the tax and spend policies of the Liberal movement has led, not only to fiscal difficulty, but to a rise in the power of government, loss of individual rights, and a vast increase in corruption.
Kevin Baird
August 2, 2016 at 5:27 pmOur concerns are certainly the same. I am under no illusion that America is at a really precipitous place. That being said I personally have come to these conclusions:
1. No matter who wins, we are under the judgment of God.
2. Every election for the next generation will be painted as “gargantuan” and America is at 11:59 on the clock. Do we continue to play only a defensive game of empowering the less distasteful candidate we are presented or do we opt for a more offensive and pro-active possiblitity. When will that time come if not now?
3. This national election is not about America’s future but God’s honor and centrality of place. Nations coma and go, which is why “His Kingdom endures forever”. I love my nation, yes…but my first allegiance is to the Lord Himself, His ways, and His precepts…even in the face of likely destruction.
4. I see no division between the sacred and the secular. The Lord is Lord of ALL, not some. (Colossians 1:16-20)
lynnie
August 2, 2016 at 4:35 pmNobody thinking of voting for Castle and the Constitution party? Pro life, pro Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Good article on third parties in American History:
https://www.constitutionparty.com/a-brief-look-at-the-history-of-third-parties-in-america/#more-‘
Keith Morse
August 2, 2016 at 6:57 pmhttp://crooksandliars.com/2016/08/10-year-old-child-yells-take-bitch-down
Stories like this are what turn me off about “evangelical conservatives. Few fellow Christians I know can muster anything but an imprecatory prayer for a Democratic politician, but will gladly countenance all manner of profanity, vulgarity and tastelessness if directed at one. The pendulum is going to swing at the church and it’s going to swing hard and much of it will be due to behavior such as this child is modeling.
Shane W
August 3, 2016 at 2:08 amHello Keith,
I read the article at the link you posted and read nothing in the article that communicated the family of the child professed to be evangelical conservatives. Did you assume that because the child was at a Trump speech that the family was evangelical conservative? Other people support Trump beside evangelical conservatives, so how do you know that this family is evangelical conservative?
Also, just because someone professes to be a Christian (evangelical conservative) does not mean that they are a Christian. Jesus plainly communicated this in Matthew 7:21-23. In brief, Jesus taught that many people on the day of judgment who called Him “Lord” (professing Christians) would be turned away from heaven because they practiced lawlessness. He stated “I never knew you”, simply meaning they were never Christians despite their profession. Verbal profession does not equal a true Christian, but only equals a profession. If one were to study the gospels with little detail, one would easily learn that filthy speech, such as cursing others, is lawlessness. Jesus even equated hating someone equivalent to murder. Someone with a profanity laced mouth professing to be Christian actually provides evidence to the outside world that he/she is not a Christian. While it is possible that a true Christian utilizes profanity (for a short timeframe), it is equally possible the professing Christian utilizing profanity is no Christian at all. You (or I) would not know of this family considering neither of us personally know them, so how about labeling that one person/family a “professing evangelical conservative” instead of an “evangelical conservative”; that is, of course, if one were able to determine the family professed to be evangelical conservatives. If one were not able to determine if the family professed to evangelical consverative, then please do not label them that. And how about the next time you hear profanity from a “presumed” evangelical conservative, please label him a “professing” or “possible but unlikely” evangelical conservative?
Next, even if the parents of this child are truly Christians and are teaching or allowing their child to use vulgarity at home, even following their example, that does not mean that all or the majority or even a large minority of true Christians teach the same. I know a hundred Christians personally whose speech is clean and respectful. In fact, the vast majority of evangelical conservatives I have met employ respectful speech regularly. Unfortunately, many people who dislike or are “fed up” with “evangelical conservatives” only read or hear the speech of the (presumed) evangelical conservatives that is presented by the media, specifically identifying the worst speech. All along, the majority of evangelical Christians (I’ve known hundreds) speak respectfully to all people in their environments. Often, evangelical conservatives with respectable speech do not even participate in these topics of political discussions, so you are missing exposure from a huge percentage of them whose speech is appropriate.
You typed “Few fellow Christians I know can muster anything but an imprecatory prayer for a Democratic politician, but will gladly countenance all manner of profanity, vulgarity, and tastelessness if directed at one”. Obviously, I don’t personally know the “fellow Christians” you are associating with, but considering that Jesus demands holiness from His disciples, I suggest you consider the following. One, that these professing Christians are sinning against others and against God and your responsibility is to respectfully rebuke them. Two, that perhaps these professing Christians are not Christians at all and you need to evangelize them. You stated “fellow Christians” so you must claim to be a Christian, and as Christians one of our highest priorities individually is to proclaim the gospel, baptize, disciple others, and teach others to obey all that Jesus has commanded (1 Peter 2:9, Mat 28:19-20).
Respectfully
Shane Wilson
August 2, 2016 at 7:48 pmThank you for the respectful response to Grudem’s article. I appreciate your delicate handling of addressing Grudem in light of his excellent work in other areas of Christianity. I agree with some of your argument addressing Grudem’s argument framework, however I do not believe the “Ex 18:21 qualification” is accurate either. I’ve type what I consider to be two errors regarding employment of Ex 18:21 to the topic of voting for the president of the United States. I’m interested in your thoughts if you have time.
At first glance, I must admit that arguing that “men who fear God, men of truth, (and) those who hate dishonest gain” is the qualification for presidency appeared to be rather sound. Unfortunately, after further thought, there seems to be two primary errors with this argument.
First, the group of men selected as “men who fear God, men of truth, (and) those who hate dishonest gain” were not selected to be the national leader. None of them were selected to lead Israel. All of them were selected as subordinates to Moses who answered to Moses. In addition, Moses selected each one of them. There was no vote, but each one was selected at the discretion of Moses. Furthermore, and more importantly, this criterion in 18:21 did not even apply to Moses. God did not choose Moses because he was a man who feared God, a man of truth, and who hated dishonest gain. If we turn to Exodus chapter 2, we learn that Moses murdered an Egyptian (lack of fear of God) for physically abusing a Hebrew. Moses then attempted to hide his murder (not a man of truth) and then once he became aware that his murder was not hidden, he fled Egypt to avoid capture and punishment (eventual dishonest gain as he experienced freedom, wealth, marriage, and children).
We also learn in Exodus chapter 2 that God heard the groaning of the sons of Israel in Egypt and remembered His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. At that point, God took notice of the sons of Israel. In Exodus 3, God reveals Himself and His plans to Moses, that God plans to utilize Moses as the leader of God’s deliverance of the sons of Israel from Egypt. There is no evidence that God employed the Ex 18:21 qualifications for Moses before selecting Moses as the leader of the deliverance and chief leader of the sons of Israel after flight. In fact, at the time God selected Moses to lead His deliverance, Moses was an unpunished murderer living in exile to avoid just punishment for his crime.
What qualifications did Moses possess that caused God to select him to be the leader of Israel? Well, it wasn’t Ex 18:21. Frankly, we don’t know for certain. The best explanation is that God chose Moses to lead Israel because He simply selected Moses to lead Israel. God’s deliverance of Israel and the Israelite’s entrance into the promise land were not dependent on God choosing a leader whose character matched Ex 18:21, but dependent on God’s sovereign choice to execute His divine will.
We could ask the same question about any national or ethnic group leader, couldn’t we? Why did God choose any one of them? Especially since so many men chosen by God through history have executed their responsibility ruthlessly.
Which leads us to the second error in the Exodus 18:21 argument, but allow me to quickly and succinctly summarize the first error. Moses was the national/ethnic leader of all of Israel and God did not employ the Ex 18:21 qualification on him when selecting him. Thus, why would we choose the Ex 18:21 qualification to select a president of the United States?
Second, God has selected every national, tribal, and ethnic leader in the history of the world. God selected all the presidents of the United States, all the prime ministers of England, and all the kings of every kingdom. God selected the ruthless Nero to rule Rome and every Islamic Caliph that murdered and enslaved easily over one hundred million people in the last 1400 years. God chose every other vicious ruler, including Hitler, Stalin, and Mau of the 20th century. How many of these rulers fit the criteria of “men who fear God, men of truth, (and) those who hate dishonest gain”? Well, obviously, not very many. If the kings of Israel and Judah are a fair representation of the kings and dictators generally speaking through the ages, then the fact is, the majority of national leaders selected by God to rule over the people over the entire course of history were never qualified according to Ex 18:21. Furthermore, most of them never became qualified according to Ex 18:21 after they entered into their office. Evil and tyrannical describes the majority of national leaders through human history.
The Ex 18:21 qualification is an excellent qualification, but God does not employ it often. One might ask why, but one reads Matthew 7:13-14 (the gate to eternal life is narrow and few find it) and Romans chapters 1-3 (all men have become useless because of their unrighteousness, 3:18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes”) he will soon discover the answer; because there aren’t many men who meet the qualification. In fact, if it weren’t for God’s salvific plan through Jesus Christ, there would not be any men ever qualified according to Ex 18:21. And given that God has selected a large number of men to lead as national/world/ethnic leaders over the course of human history, He has seldom employed the Ex 18:21 qualification as His standard for selection.
If God does not utilize the Ex 18:21 qualification to select national leaders, then why should we utilize it when considering to vote for the president of the United States?
kathleen mortensen
August 2, 2016 at 8:00 pmI find it amazing that anyone believes Donald Trump is a Christian. What church has he ever attended? When he speaks he seems to have no knowledge of the bible.I don’t believe he has any concern for pro life ,pro the environment, or pro anything else but Trump. I am also amazed by the person who admires his children even as they feel entitled to shoot endangered species, and criticize our public school teachers, and gold star parents. Do we admire the Trumps for their morals or their money?
Kevin Wasser
August 2, 2016 at 8:30 pmFor those saying your faith won’t allow you to vote for Trump, did you vote for Mitt “false doctrine” Romney in 2012? Did you vote for John “cozy with abortion loving Democrats” McCain in 2008?
I don’t wand to cause a stir beyond that, just throwing that out there. Thank you for the article, nonetheless, Mr. Baird.
Brad Bates
August 3, 2016 at 12:38 amMyself and Dr Baird did. And we both recognize it as wrong.
My question to you is, do past wrongs suddenly make current wrongs right?
michael burke
August 2, 2016 at 9:36 pmI’m voting for Donald J. Trump.
In our Faith, once delivered to the Saints, we know and have come to embrace that women do not rule over men. Why would that be any different in the political arena?
Also, I will say this having made my view clear what I believe about women in rulership roles in politics, if Hillary Clinton is elected President of the United States I will pray for her as I pray for President Obama. I will also pray for Donald Trump if he becomes the next President of the United States. Clearly my reasons are self motivating and personal as we learn WHY we are to pray for our leaders from the Apostle Paul’s letter to Timothy:
1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
Praying for our leaders should conform to the purpose God wants for us praying, that is, THAT WE MAY LEAD A PEACEFUL AND QUIET LIFE, GODLY AND DIGNIFIED IN EVERY WAY.
I have other Biblical reasons for why I support the nomination of Donald Trump and will vote for him. Those two above seems utmost of them all.
Hank Beymer
August 2, 2016 at 9:47 pmYou say; “As a theologian, Dr. Grudem is well aware of the doctrine of depravity and how we all are subject to the frailties of our humanity, but what is astounding to me is that he considers none of these “flaws” (which the Scripture calls “sins”) could be disqualifying for civil service.”
Having set the bar so high, I must ask you if you have voted in any presidential election? I would assume (hope that’s not a mistake here) that you have. I would further assume, that since you are a staunch theological conservative, you are also in all probability a political conservative. If this is true, did you vote for Ronald Reagan? A man who eschewed biblical advice and repeatedly sought advice from mediums and astrologers? Was that “sin” not the same as that of Saul? How about Mitt Romney. Did you vote for him? A man whose spiritual life is founded in the rantings and machinations of a con man and false prophet? On the off chance that you aren’t politically conservative, and voted for…oh, Bill Clinton, for example, then I can only say…wow. I could go on about all of the presidential candidates for the past century, but that would be beating a dead horse.
As you so aptly note, the doctrine of depravity establishes the utter inability of any person to be sinless, therefore it follows that ANY person seeking political office is flawed, and falls far short of the glory and perfection of God. How then, can you expect any person to be NOT disqualified?
If you then disqualify ALL, it follows (according to your hermeneutic) that you can’t, in good conscience, cast a vote for anyone….so you just sit it out, thereby not offending God. Sounds more like a Gamalielian tactic than anything else.
We then reach the stage where we must consider the result of an insistence upon “moral superiority” and an “absolute biblical worldview”. Just for the sake of argument, let’s say that there are 200 million voters, equally divided between democrat and republican and a very minute percentage (2 or less) in the libertarian/other/socialist camp. Out of the 100 million or so democrats, we can reasonably predict that all are in the “never Trump” camp. Of the 100 million in the republican side, a significant portion are “evangelical”….let’s say (conservatively) about 30 million. If these evangelicals follow your lead, and either (a) sit out the vote, or (b) cast their vote for a third party candidate, then the democratic vote is handed a crushing majority, thereby ensuring the rise to power of one of the most degenerate and morally reprehensible people on the face of this earth. And we made it happen.
Of course, we can then pontificate that “it’s God’s will, but He’s in charge, so it’s ok.” We can also puff out our chests and proclaim how we didn’t offend God by not compromising our theology and standards. My, my…pride goeth before a fall…and great will be that fall.
Is that really what you want? Is that what God wants?
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little.
Edmond Burke
Kevin Baird
August 3, 2016 at 2:36 amHank, I have responded under other comments concerning several points.
The only two I might add are:
1. The “high bar” as you describe it, is…
Able men
Fear God
Men of truth
Hate covetousness
If you consider that a “high bar”…I really don’t know what to say.
2. A Biblical Worldview is as valid a governing philosophy as any other so-called “secular” option. If enough Christians were committed to a biblical worldview, the politics of it would change because that is what politics does…it reacts to civic movement.
As long as we keep validating through our votes these horrendous choices, we are enabling the convoluted system which keeps producing it. It’s the old saying, “What you feed grows and what you starve shrinks”. It is time to “starve” these unqualified candidates by withholding our votes until they get hungry enough to change.
Hank Beymer
August 3, 2016 at 10:55 pmDr. Baird, thank you so much for your reply. You seem to question my use of the term “setting the bar so high”, however if you will follow me on a short journey, I think you will understand why I chose that term.
I believe that you will agree with me that, scripturally, any failure to “meet the mark” is sin. In your section one, you even point out that Dr. Grudem’s categorization of a distinction between “flawed” and “evil” is inconsistent, since scripture plainly calls it “sin”. You then are astounded that Dr. Grudem could consider those sins (flaws) as not disqualifying for civil service, which certainly implies that you believe that ANY flaw/sin is an automatic disqualifier.
To me, the clear statement being made by these remarks is that the application of Ex. 18:21 is not, in and of itself, adequate enough, and that an additional qualifier must be applied….that being “unflawed”, aka “sinless”.
So yes, the bar has been set high.
Now if we don’t add any qualifier to Ex. 18:21, then you do have a very good set of “earmarks” to apply to consideration of any candidate, which then, in my opinion, means that we must then objectively examine the type and number of the “flaws”. If we do that, then it automatically follows that we must “rate” those flaws on a scale, ranging from “boo-boo prone” to “inherently evil”.
G. W. Bush is a flawed man, but not evil. Adolph Hitler was a flawed man, and evil. John McCain is a flawed man, but not evil. Al Sharpton is a flawed man, and evil.
I believe that this method of “rating” as espoused by Dr. Grudem is not only logical (come, let us reason together), but one that is taught to us by Jesus when he said “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” (Mat. 7:17-18 and Luk. 6:43).
So then, what is flawed? What is evil? Are they analogous?
As to your last remarks, I am in agreement that it’s time for Christians to stand up for what is right, and good. However, I’m not willing to allow evil to flourish by withholding my vote for someone who is flawed. Who knows? Trump may be rotten to the core, and time will tell. But I know Clinton is rotten to the core, and her mind definitely is only on evil continually. We’ve just gone through 8 years of that kind of leadership, and I cannot believe that God wants it to continue.
Charles C. Roberts
August 3, 2016 at 1:06 pmHank, And good morning to you this fine day !!! What do you think of the Bible ? The Word of God ? In John12 :44—50 Christ tells us of the importance of His Word. I know you hear of how the Word is distorted because of translations etc.. but as for me I believe the Lord preserves His Word . In Luke’s letter 17:1,2 We are warned about harming children . Planned Parenthood to date has murdered over 15 million babies and they also have contributed many millions of dollars to both the Obama and Clinton election campaigns . Couple that with Secretary of State Clinton standing by the 4 caskets of the Americans killed at Benghazi because of both Clinton and Obama’s incompetence AND LYING ABOUT A VIDEO BEING THE CAUSE !!! The next week Obama dispatched Susan Rice to make the rounds of the morning talk shows to further the lie ? That did it for me . I could never in good conscience vote for Hillary Clinton
Hank Beymer
August 3, 2016 at 11:01 pmGood morning to you Charles! What do I think of the Bible? I think it is the finest collection of writings ever assembled in one cover, is the very Word of God, and contains everything we need to know to know Him, and to live day by day.
Thanks for asking!
Bruce McAtee
August 3, 2016 at 9:50 amI have a few questions for this Group. Who chose Hitler, God or the German people? Who kept him from being taken out by his enemies early on? Was Germany considered a Christian Nation at that time? What do you think, were the German people the ones in control. Did the German Christians vote for Hitler? What was the other choice? Have learned from History?
Dr. Robert D. Hosken
August 3, 2016 at 10:56 amVote for Robert D Hosken, a real Pro-Life Candidate @ RDHosken-for-President(dot)com – see “How YOU Can Help!” I am a committed Christian and have wide-ranging foreign policy experience. Please see “My Platform” and “About Me” on my website.
Charles C. oberts
August 3, 2016 at 11:59 amHmm…all of these really smart Christians , I’m almost afraid to speak . Planned Parenthood to date has murdered over 15 million babies !!! Doesn’t Luke 17:1,2 concern any of you folks since they have contributed many millions to both the Obama and Clinton election campaign’s ? Seems to me that somewhere between the “video lie ” at Andrews Air Force Base standing next to the 4 coffins of the Murdered Americans told by then Secretary Of State Clinton and backed by the President himself and their association with Planned Parenthood I cannot in good conscience EVER vote for Hillary Clinton
Kevin Baird
August 3, 2016 at 4:16 pmNo one in the #nolesseroftwoevils movement is suggesting a person vote for Hillary. We are suggesting that a vote for DT does not necessarily stop the killing of babies.
Robert N. Edwards
August 5, 2016 at 4:52 pmNo, but a vote for Hillary Clinton will for sure continue the killing of babies.
Franke Kilpatrick
August 27, 2016 at 11:01 pmTrump changes his opinion every few minutes and he is trying so hard to keep up with the polls that if he loses a demographic he will do a 189 to try to capture their vote. His ties and debts to Russia and China are enough to make us think twice. He is at heart a pyromaniac who cannot wait to blow someone up. His admiration of past and present inhumane dictators is the thing that scares me the most. Jesus taught us to have compassion for all people not just those who think the same as we do. That compassion is what will get us into heaven, not hating anyone that is different. No one will ever force you to have an abortion or force you to worship in a way that you don’t want to. Religious freedom should be for everyone not just Christians because there will be no religious freedom if everyone is forced to worship a certain way. I am a Christian and first and foremost I believe we should lead an example of love , compassion,, understanding and charity. Then everything else will work out as it should. Faith in Trump is misguided, faith in God id not.
Charles C. Roberts
August 3, 2016 at 12:01 pmsorry I misspelled my first name earlier=Charles C Roberts
Annette
August 3, 2016 at 4:52 pmThank you. This is one of the best responses to the original article I have read so far. Thank you!
Charles Trovillion
August 3, 2016 at 8:52 pmI don’t have a PHD only a college degree and 40 plus years as a business man and owner. As far as hiring people I have made mis-judgements in the past and learned from them. I do have an excellent grasp of what the Holy scriptures mean to followers of Christ. That said, along the way I have been surprised by those people I call brothers and sister in Christ and their decisions in life. For example I recall many years ago a young man thought to be the example of a young man with high character walk off the alter rejecting his beautiful young bride to be because she had a medical issue with one of her hips and he did not want to be saddled with the responsibility later in life. Then there was a middle aged business man with a potty mouth that gave his heart to our Lord and was responsible for bringing in many to the church while none of the leaders did anything of the sort. The man of who I speak has remained faithful for over 30 years and was able to in time clean up his language and learn from his mistakes. Then there was this other man that walked in off the street days out of prison looking for some one to love him and his young wife ending up serving in the Ministry for about 40 years until health overcame him. Of course there was St Paul and you know where he came from and who can forget what David did yet God said he was a man after His own heart. Unbelievable what God can do with a man that He chooses. It is said that you are a composite of the 5 people that you spend the most time with. Whatever Mr Trump has done in the past, it seems that we should consider who has his ear at this time in history going forward. With that in mind, I raised my children watching very close to who had their ear and who they hung out with and I will do the same when I cast my vote next November, regardless of what the educated of the world write or think.
Kevin Baird
August 3, 2016 at 9:09 pmCharles, you sound like a great parent who was wise with his kids. You are to be commended.
That being said, you would not have allowed your kids to hang around DT. You would have evaluated his speech, his fruit, his life style, his general track record and would have said, “Kids, I’m not sure he’d be a great influence.”
And yet you are willing for him to influence every child in America. I think the point you were trying to make actually makes my point all the more clear. We need examples for president, not works in process.
At best, Trump is a novice Christian who needs discipling as Paul did for several years before he is loosed into national leadership.
Travis Isaacson
August 3, 2016 at 9:11 pmThank you for your voice. I share your thinking and hope we can turn a few people from voting for Trump just because he’s not Hillary.
David Grissen
August 4, 2016 at 4:10 amI think the implication of what you write is that the believer can’t vote for anyone. Scriptural qualifications applied to any of those running are all a matter of degree and personal judgement. I guess I prefer to say, all are flawed and this time the warts are closer to the surface than they have been in other elections, the system is under the control of the evil one, I have a vote, so I’ll vote for the person who stands for more of the worldview I live with.
Regarding voting for another party — that seems like a cop out since we know that vote will not in the end put that person into power. It may assuage my feelings and way of thinking, but will not influence the politics and direction of the country for the next 4 years. I could just as well stay home and not vote.
Or didn’t I understand what you’re saying correctly?
Kevin Baird
August 4, 2016 at 11:24 amI suppose every voter has a set of their own qualifications if you get right down to it. However, Romans 13:4,6 tell us that public servants are as ministers in God’s site. If the character bar is too high (really?) then you would never have pastors either.
We are letting candidates off the hook of good “fruit” and we keep getting what we have.
Jay
August 4, 2016 at 6:12 amDr Robt D Hosken as 3rd party candidate, (see his link, above) sounds good & very capable to me.
All the discussion aside, if the Church can unite, even for a write-in, if we engage & get energized by social media, networking–even pulpit proclamations (not illegal, according to the ADF) in the three months yet to Nov 7, there’s plenty of time to get a candidate legitimized to write-in in on ballots in all the states who allow this. Even to engage Dr Grudem, James Dobson, & what of Franklin Graham, even Sean Hannity, et al to get the word out–dump Trump & write-in Dr Robert Hosken!
Pls see this site in re to write-in eligibiilty: https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_access_for_presidential_candidates
BTW, is great to read the well-written, informed opinions many share above. Let’s unite in prayer on this & get a consensus pick quick, or we’ll be praying for Hillary for next four yrs, minimum (Does that sound appealing; can you trust God in this if it occurs?).
Jay
18 Reflections on Grudem on Trump
August 4, 2016 at 1:54 pm[…] Kevin Baird: A Response to Dr. Wayne Grudem’s Endorsement of Donald Trump […]
Kelly Shamblin
August 4, 2016 at 9:55 pmMr. Baird this is an excellent excellent post and argument! I am so glad you posted this refute the Grudem article. I think he’s off key there irregardless of his past writings and stance. He like any of us can be wrong and I don’t like the fact that he gives no grace to a Christian to vote based on Biblical Principles and direction Exodus 18:21. Very disturbing in fact.
To Vote, Or Not To Vote. That Is NOT The Question. | Words From Wags
August 5, 2016 at 3:05 pm[…] A Response to Dr. Wayne Grudem’s Endorsement of Donald Trump […]
Robert N. Edwards
August 5, 2016 at 4:45 pmAs a post seminary student of Dr. Grudem back in 1990-91, while on active duty as a Navy Chaplain, I found him to be an enlightening Professor. Now as a retired Southern Baptist Minister and Navy Chaplain I do try to pick the potential POTUS based upon my understanding of the Bible, but other factors as well. For example, I am concerned that sexism is not being discussed since over 70% of females support Hillary Clinton. We have never had that many females to support just one candidate before. From a Christian standpoint should the fact that one is female be a factor in any political contest? Secondly, I have a unique background in that before entering the ministry I served 13 years in military intelligence covering the Middle East and the Soviet Union as a Russian and Hebrew linguists working under the National Security Agency. I am mind-boggled how so many Americans have given Hillary a “Get Out of Jail Free” card for her sharing many thousands of military secrets with the world–secrets that can cost hundreds of agents their lives. The disclosure of just one of those secrets would have cost me my security clearance, my job, and even my career. I possessed the very highest security clearance this country provided when I was working in the Pentagon. How and from who we obtain our intelligence is not the same as playing Monopoly. She willfully revealed Top Secret material on her personal email server when she was Secretary of State, even violating several federal laws, by setting up the unauthorized, unsecure server for her own “convenicence.” She did about the same thing again just the past few months ago when she ordered the DNC to continue to send/receive email messages even thought they were warned by FBI that they were being “hacked.” She has ignored advice from first one government directive and then another. Is there anything in the Book of Proverbs about doing Wise things and choosing Wise leaders? Even Hillary has now admitted that what she did was not wise.
I am shocked at how little adult, American Christians know about the world of Islam. We are currently being “flooded” by Muslim “refugees” from Syria. Before this flood they came from Iraq, Yemen and other Muslim countries. Hillary Clinton has a staff member that she considers her “second daughter” named Huma Abedin. Huma’s deceased father was a leader in the Muslim Brotherhood who came up with the idea that Muslims could over power western nations by sheer numbers of “refugees.” He determined that our weakest link is also the very heart of our democracy where the “majority rules.” If you gain the most voters you can rule–that is already happening in London where the mayor is now a Muslim because more than 50 percent of Londoners are Muslim. Every Christian should do a search “Huma Abdein’s father Muslim flood” and start reading and maybe your children and grandchildren will not have to live under Sharia Law. Why isn’t the flood of refugees directed toward Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, Qatar, UAE, Egypt, Morocco, Jordan, Pakistan, and all the other “stans”? Those are Muslim countries many of them with billions of dollars in banks, they all communicate in Arabic, they have the same culture and religon for the most part, and they are closer to Syria so that if the families want to return after the civil war it would be much easier to do so. Christians we need to understand the Muslims want to outnumber us; not outsource us. So then, why does Hillary Clinton have such a close association with the Muslim Brotherhood who wants to surpass Christianity? Her Vice President choice just so happens to have a close association with them, too.
How do we Christians act toward Muslims in a time when we are being killed left and right by radical extremeists? Where do we put our faith in leading Muslims to Christ and can we do that faster than they can overcome us? I lived on Cyprus in 1963-64 and 1970-72 with a Turkish village a mile across the field behind my home. My family was evacuated from war between the Greeks and Turks in 1964. My Greek owned home during the second tour there now sits vacant and runined in a “No Mans Land” from the Turkish invasion of 1973 looking out at a Muslim village a half mile across the field in back of the house. In 1966 and 67, I was stationed in Turkey. I rented, bought food daily from the market, got haircuts, bought household items (a carpet still adorns my living room floor) and lived as close to Muslims as any Christian could. There was even a mosque a stone throw behind the apartment in which we lived. I know that many of them are wonderful people. So, I have lived and fellowshipped with many Muslims over the years and I now have Muslim neighbors with whom I am very close with, and yes I am trying to lead them to Christ. But, is that what Hillary Clinton is trying to do? Is she trying to convert the Muslims?
In my opinion, the answer is NO. She has accepted the political correct idea that the Muslim religion is a “peaceful” religion. That is true for those Muslims who want to live with us in peace. But, in recent decades the Muslim world has attacked us time and time again. The Muslim world has changed “radically” since the 1960s. I just watched the movie made in Istanbul in 1963 that we know as “From Russia with Love.” You can see in that movie how the women then looked like most western women…they did not wear the hijab, and strick Muslim garb that is a sign of Sharia Law like is seen on the streets of Istanbul today. Turkey was once the most western Muslim country in the world. Now they have President Erdogan who is a tyrant and dictator who is pushing radical Islam.
The Muslim world is moving away from moderate and cooperative relations with America. This is both good and bad for us Christians. The love of Jesus shines brightest where there is hatred and resentment. It may prove that our efforts to convert Muslims will be more successful–if we can get missionaries into those countries. However, we need the cooperation of our State Department and government not to try to overthrow every Muslim national leader with whom they don’t agree. Hillary and Barak have “assisted” the departure of leaders from Iraq, Libya, and Egypt. They are now trying to get Al-Assad removed from Syria. Those countries all became destablized in the past 6 years. In Egypt, Hillary got a Muslim Brotherhood (MB) government elevated to power–Huma Abedin–imagine that! She must have been happy with what her father had done. The MB government then started burning churches, raping Christian women and children, and murdering Christian men. It got so bad that the Egyptian military had to take over the government, and arrest all of the MB leaders. In Libya, Hillary got Mohammar Ghadaffi (spelled differently many times) murdered and tortured and she then laughted about it on video. Even though he had been cooperating with the west for several years she had a dislike for him. That destablized Libya, allowed Al-qaeda, ISIS, and MB movements to take over which resulted in the killings at Benghazi where we were lucky that only 4 of the 34 Americans who were there were killed. Right now we are involved in air attacks against these radical groups in Libya thus Obama is expanding the war even as I write.
We still don’t know what is going to happen in Syria–if Al-Assad is removed from power most likely Iran will take over. After all, they already have a large military force there called Hezbollah. Russia is firmly an ally with Syria and Iran and that does not bode well for us in the Middle East. But, as Christians just how many years will it be before these Muslim countries whom Hillary Clinton has attacked will allow our missionaries back in? In some cases, she has caused the division among the Muslims to rip wide open vis-a-vis Sunni and Shia Muslims. For example, Iran is in battle with Saudi Arabia and we have had to protect Saudi Arabia. Yemen is torn almost in half with one part Sunni and one part Shia; one supports Iran and the other Saudi Arabia. If Hillary Clinton becomes POTUS will she be accepted by the countries where she has caused ISIS, Al-Qaeda, and the MB to infiltrate and take over? This now links to all of North Africa and all of the Middle East. Can we have a POTUS who is so disliked by so many countries?
What is an even greater challenge to Christian belief is what is happening right here at home. We now have an atheistic organization that is trying to get military Chaplains investigated and charged for saying prayers while in uniform. Under the Obama administration, and we can assume also under a Clinton administration, Chaplains can not and will not be able to use the name Jesus except under the strictest of orders. There will be no ability for a Chaplain to be involved in evangelism nor even having a prayer with the troops. Frist Admentment rights have all but been taken away from Chaplains and the Freedom of Religion in the military is being taken away from your sons and daughters and family members who are or will serve in the military. These are things that have been going on ever since Bill Clinton first took office and we were told then that we had to accept homosexuality as a normal human relationship or we should consider resigning from the Chaplaincy. That got partially resolved by what became known as “Don’t ask; don’t tell.” Why should Chaplains feel that a Hillary Clinton will be any better for them than was Bill Clinton?
With a wife working as a nurse in a Drug and Alcohol Detox Center, I am knowledgeable of the number of additive cases that is increasing by the hours. Many states are pointing out that drug addiction is now a national epidemic. However, when was the last time you heard of any real effort by the Clinton and Obama administration to stop the influx of illegal drugs? I have taken the position that when Jesus refused a drugged drink while on the cross then that should be a Christian norm. Apparently, the Clintons have a different view. Bill is reported to be a cocaine user who has been in rehab and has a serious problem even now. Why hasn’t the State Department obtained from Afghanistan assistance to stop the growing of cocaine producing poppeys? Why didn’t the State Department, under Hillary Clinton, work with Mexico to stop the infiltration of the Mexican Drug Cartels into the United States? Since she took over, the Cartels crossed our borders, put guards along the drug routes, and established drug places in almost every city you can name. It is clear that the Clinton family has a warm and cozy feeling with illegal drugs and if she is POTUS we will have to wonder just what kind of smoke is really blowing from the White House.
I have not even touched on abortion. As a solid Pro-life Christian I consider that to be murder or else women should stop praying for other women to get pregnant and be protected during pregnancy. But, I have tried to point out things that I think are also very relevant which maybe you don’t think about. I pray that God will give us a President who will be great for America.
Robert N. Edwards
August 5, 2016 at 5:13 pmEveryone should read this webpage in which Dr. James Dobson believes that Donald Trump will restore our Christian rights and freedoms. He points out that Obama and Hillary Clinton have been and are now using the expression of Christians having a “Freedom to worship” instead of a “Freedom of Religion.” Dobson says that they now want to limit our freedoms to inside the church/chapel instead of on the streets and in public.
http://www.westernjournalism.com/dobson-electing-trump-white-house-unleash-christian-activists/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=WesternJournalism&utm_content=2016-08-04&utm_campaign=manualpost
Joel
August 5, 2016 at 7:04 pmThank you, Dr. Baird, for this blog. At times it seems like a lonely walk as a Christian who wants to follow what the Word says rather than following feelings or emotions. It is good to know there is still a remnant out there.
J.R.
August 6, 2016 at 1:08 amIn response to those saying we need to vote against Hillary at any cost;
Any statement that involves saying “your vote only counts if you cast it in x direction” completely invalidates the point of voting at all. To say “a Vote for X candidate is throwing your vote away because only Y and Z candidate stand a chance”, is a lap in the face to our right and privilege to vote. It’s insulting to anyone who chooses to step into a voting both. On top of that, if you’re going to stretch in that far, you might as well say if you live in California and you don’t support Hillary, you might as well not vote at all, because your vote really doesn’t count. Same can be said in reverse of Texas and Trump. Do not insult people by degrading their vote before it’s even cast, because you disagree with their philosophy and feel that the “lesser of two evils” is a valid way to vote.
Birgit Jones
August 6, 2016 at 3:41 pmI write this as a Catholic with the same concerns you voice. How difficult it is to stand, seemingly alone, while you ponder how others are satisfied with their lesser of two evils ‘solution’. Thank you for writing this. I am sharing it with my friends of all faiths.
I, myself, have tried in my own small way to share the message as well. If you feel so inclined, take a look at my article and the sad state of affairs in the combox. May God have mercy!
http://www.catholicstand.com/10-reasons-can-not-vote-trump/
Daniel W Stinson
August 6, 2016 at 4:01 pmhttp://samuelwhitefield.com/1811/four-issues-to-consider-before-you-vote-trump-what-is-really-at-stake
Why I won’t vote for Trump or Clinton | Conservative in CA's Blog
August 8, 2016 at 7:25 pm[…] http://drkevinbaird.com/wp/2016/07/29/__trashed/ […]
C.S Lewis should really be read more… Wayne Grudem not so much – faithreasonaddingup
August 9, 2016 at 11:58 pm[…] of Donald Trump , subsequently eviscerated by everyone on the planet (including those who share his reformed theology) perhaps best by Throckmorton. All of these point out the moral, […]
Charles M Boles
August 11, 2016 at 4:31 amEvery comment here shows how little you all know. God will do what he will do and everyone’s non stop attempts to come out as the righteous, chosen one is hubris. No one knows the true heart of either one of them and it is God’s law that will prevail. Each one trying to out do the other with their knowledge when they do not know anything at all. I have not turned away nor anyone i know so this punishment for ungodly ways must be from your area. The more you talk the more ignorant you sound. How can so many people be each right in their opinion because it’s just that, opinions. We will see and I can say with certainty that you are all wrong. Try less justification and more faith. He and only he knows and to even imply you do is ignorance of your system of beliefs which most of you have very easily twisted to fit your proposed understanding. I have heard agendas but no humbleness or purity of heart. You are blind and deaf for only he knows how and why. You know nothing but self righteous delusion. Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.
Sam Hill
August 11, 2016 at 2:22 pmIt will either be Trump or Clinton. I wish people would get that into their heads. To abstain from voting is to vote for the GREATER of two “evils”, the one being only rhetorically evil while the other being truly evil. Hillary is not open to God’s ways at all, while Trump can be influenced and persuaded by those who know God well. We need to vote strategically, not simply according to our small ideas of what seems right.
Larry Bass
August 19, 2016 at 4:39 pmhttp://www.charismanews.com/politics/opinion/59206-if-you-re-on-the-fence-about-your-vote-this-pastor-clarifies-how-the-very-future-of-america-is-at-stake
We will all give account for every idle word, and every idle VOTE (or lack of vote). If I can vote for a cult member (Romney), I can surely vote for Trump. Consider ProLife issues – the judges Donald will pick – the VP already chosen. I’m a Christian, and I’m voting for Trump.
Brett Ahern
August 23, 2016 at 4:52 amThank you for your article. It is well thought out. It is a shame that Evangelicalism has accepted the ruse of a one-topic decider – repealing abortion. That was crafted by the Republican party in the 70s, by consultants who advised the leadership that they needed a simple attraction for this voting block, like the Democrats had with minorities: end poverty in our lifetime! Neither abortion nor poverty can be ended in our lifetime. Utopianism distracts us from the real mission of engaging the culture to bring real Truth.
The emphasis throughout Scripture, by the Prophets and Early Church, when correcting people; were overwhelmingly the sins of dividing the people, creating second class ‘citizens’. This is what our countries atmosphere has become: the rich paying politicians to make laws that allow them to get richer. And now, a member of this lawless 1%, who has clearly demonstrated his mistreatment and contempt for the workers that make him rich; wants to join the political class.
And the Church sits wringing it’s hands, proclaiming their faith in fear, terrorized. If we followed our prophetic role we would not be here now. We would have exposed enough lies to bring shame to the system, and either have viable 2-party candidates; or have made a 3rd party visible enough to be a contender.
Maybe it’s not to late to convert and obey the Way God outlined.
Joe Willie Kirk
August 30, 2016 at 10:47 pmOne issue I haven’t noticed in all this fascinating discussion is God knows who will be elected and give us the leaders he deems appropriate for his reasons. You truly do reap what we have sown as a country. Reading the book of Isaiah thru an election cycle will get your attention quickly. This country has willingly and happily mocked God both parties are equally guilty. I suspect and fear we are going to reap a bumper crop of the evil we have sown. It’s the only reason I can think of to explain how we ended up with Clinton and Trump.
Kym
September 8, 2016 at 5:31 pmDear brother in Christ, Dr. Baird: I am sadly concerned of your remarks which many People who have replied to you are sad and disappointed in your comments as well! To suggest that we should choose a third-party that we know nothing about and could be way worse than Hillary and Trump put together is absurd!! I have studied and read, and listened to many Christians who have said the opposite of what you were saying though some I’m sure are in agreement with you. God is sovereign and he wants us to be wise and pray of course! I do not see Trump as a biget, but someone who is lost as all other candidates in the past for the most part yet is open to many of God’s moral truths . He has surrounded himself with some godly people such as Mike Pence who would be the vice President of United States if Trump were in. Trump wants to put in people in the Supreme Court who has the same principles as Christians for such things as pro-life along with other moral issues that God cares about so deeply! There are many stories in the Bible where God is put in Kings bad and good to bring about what He wants to accomplish!!! Do you know the story of Nebuchadnezzar? He was one of the most ruthless kings and no moral or godly values, infact and evil king in every way! But nobody could see what God was doing and how God will use this man to please him in the end. God did humble Nebuchadnezzar who ended up acknowledging God as the one true God and the only God to be worshiped. Who are you to say God cannot do that with Trump or anyone for that matter! After all did he not get a hold of you, or me?… You too have to answer to God for your involvement of telling people pretty much to vote for third-party or not at all! I do feel angry about this as I feel that this is a spiritual warfare and prayer is always the answer. He did not put in in Ben Carsen, who was running for president, and by the way has endorsed Mr. Trump,yet didn’t become a nominee. Humm.. Was not God in control of that if he wanted a true Christian in that position. How do we know what God wants except for God himself? Just as Nebuchadnezzar, it is possible that Trump will get saved and maybe one day Hillary herself. The Bible clearly says that nothing is impossible with God. It also says He uses the wicked and the righteous for his purposes ! We must pray as this is a spiritual battle that is one in the heavenly realms make no mistake. I do not believe you should discourage anyone from voting the person God wants to put in office whether it is Hillary or Trump. A third-party is not an option! I have never studied or looked at the political positions taken place in our nation today on this election until this election. But I know God wants me to continue to pray but has made it clear to me personally to vote for Trump. His ideals and morals line up more with God standards than Hillary or a third-party we know nothing of. God’s ways are higher than ours and who knows who He will put in as such a time as this! I will not play God or pretend I know all the answers for sure, but as a Christian, I will trust God with the outcome and do not believe to guess or gamble on a third-party! I k ow many strong evangelical pastors who are voting for Trump! It seems that you would be making the same moral judgments on them as well. As an evangelical Christian we have to remember we are not fighting one another, but the true enemy… The one who comes to kill ,steal, and destroy ! The Battle belongs to the Lord and Him alone